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A message for gun owners.
- Thread starter chris in va
- Start date
I get the spirit of this, but damn it, my gun is locked up. My doors are locked as are my windows and my ADT alarm system is engaged. I feel much more able to defend my wife and myself with my gun within relatively easy reach. Putting it in a safe back in my closet with any kind of lock on it defeats the sole purpose of my owning the gun in the first place.
If someone takes extraordinary measures to get into my home and steals my TV and my gun, I will feel no responsibility whatsoever for any subsequent ill-advised usage of my stolen property, including robbing a liquor store or watching Survivor.
If someone takes extraordinary measures to get into my home and steals my TV and my gun, I will feel no responsibility whatsoever for any subsequent ill-advised usage of my stolen property, including robbing a liquor store or watching Survivor.
therealdeal
New member
MLeake I have to agree w/you(regarding your recent posts).
I use a safe BUT I feel this thread is skewed. I believe statistics have it at only about 40% of guns being secured in this fashion....
I am well aware of this. I think growing up in an anti state influenced my felings on safes.
As for pools, i must respedtfully and whole-heartedly disagree with you. Kids wonder, kids fall in by accident due to clumsiness or curiosity, etc, and some do not know the dangers. Either way, the law doesn't demand a fortress. the law dictates a fence which can be miminal. it does save lives.
I use a safe BUT I feel this thread is skewed. I believe statistics have it at only about 40% of guns being secured in this fashion....
I am well aware of this. I think growing up in an anti state influenced my felings on safes.
As for pools, i must respedtfully and whole-heartedly disagree with you. Kids wonder, kids fall in by accident due to clumsiness or curiosity, etc, and some do not know the dangers. Either way, the law doesn't demand a fortress. the law dictates a fence which can be miminal. it does save lives.
I was only saying its a poor analogy. Maybe my assault car analogy was poor as well....
I'd rather talk about responsible gun storage than cars. I agree with keeping guns locked up, and that if stolen we are not liable. I agree with the OP's plea to keep our guns secure when unattended.
I'd rather talk about responsible gun storage than cars. I agree with keeping guns locked up, and that if stolen we are not liable. I agree with the OP's plea to keep our guns secure when unattended.
Pond James Pond
New member
Pond, what if such legislation
a. provided no funds for poor people to buy storage devices;
or
b. required that any gun not actively carried must be locked up (IE no nightstand gun when you sleep)?
Would you still think such legislation a good trade?
Mleake, if you are implying that the need to buy a safe would "infringe" on someone's right to bear arms, then why not petition gun companies give guns away FOC?
Let's be realistic: There will always be someone, somewhere that can't afford a gun so, in principle, they 2nd-A right is being infringed...
I see people on here buying guns for $400, $500, $600. I can't imagine that a safe is anywhere near that cost, especially if it just designed for a couple of pistols...
I am required, by law, to lock up my guns. I had to factor in the cost of a safe into my budgets.
My safe complies with the law and is signficantly cheaper than any of my guns except for my Astra that I got for a song, purely by luck. Even then it is not a big difference.
Add to that the fact that I am by no means wealthy and that firearm goods in Estonia are waaaaay more expensive than the US (Ruger Redhawk 4.2" about $1600). Yet, I managed.
As regards to the carry clause. We have this restriction but the law was flexible in its interpretation of carry. They take carry to mean holster or case, coffee table or bedside table. The gun, in all cases, is still under the care and supervision of its owner who is carrying it, sitting by it or lying next to it. I see no reason why that could not be the case in the US..
All that said to address your point but, allow me to repeat, again, an important point from my last post: I am not hoping for legislation in any particularly fashion. If it passes, so be it, if not then I hope people buy a safe regardless.
I simply recognise that legislation becomes more and more likely if people do not behave responsibly off their own backs and incidence arise.... as such I consider what legislation would work and be acceptable.
Given the alternatives, it would be a fair trade, IMO...
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spacecoast
New member
I get the spirit of this, but damn it, my gun is locked up. My doors are locked as are my windows and my ADT alarm system is engaged. I feel much more able to defend my wife and myself with my gun within relatively easy reach. Putting it in a safe back in my closet with any kind of lock on it defeats the sole purpose of my owning the gun in the first place.
Lots of good, reasonable thoughts on this thread. The paragraph above is closest to my own philosophy. In addition, none of my HD guns are "out" in obvious places where they would be easy to pick up, someone would really have to be looking hard for them to find them. As several have said, it used to be common to leave guns and ammo on full display in an easily defeated display case or just standing behind the door. I think there's a limit to the accommodations we have to make for the criminals and crazies in the world.
Pond, it seems you have not priced safes.
A portable lockbox will keep your small child away from the gun, but will not keep a teenaged thief from taking lockbox, gun, and all. Typical lockbox is $20-$40 USD, but is useless in the context of this discussion.
(Edit: Lost the key to one; took it to a local gunsmith; took him less than two minutes to open the box; less than ten minutes to both open the box and make me a new key.)
A lockable cabinet, such as a Stack-On, goes from $99 to $399 depending on size. It can be defeated in minutes by a screwdriver, or in seconds by an axe.
The cheapest true safe I had was $600 on sale, and was primarily 12 gauge steel. It had seams that would be susceptible to a hammer and chisel, and panels that could be defeated over time by an axe or grinding tool. It was not less expensive than a decent used gun; at 600 lbs it required delivery; and I had to have both floor space to store it and floor strength to support it.
My current safe, as noted earlier, is much tougher. It also weighs 1000 lbs and cost $3000 USD.
So I suspect you might be underestimating the costs of safes, or overestimating the security of lockboxes and cabinets.
A portable lockbox will keep your small child away from the gun, but will not keep a teenaged thief from taking lockbox, gun, and all. Typical lockbox is $20-$40 USD, but is useless in the context of this discussion.
(Edit: Lost the key to one; took it to a local gunsmith; took him less than two minutes to open the box; less than ten minutes to both open the box and make me a new key.)
A lockable cabinet, such as a Stack-On, goes from $99 to $399 depending on size. It can be defeated in minutes by a screwdriver, or in seconds by an axe.
The cheapest true safe I had was $600 on sale, and was primarily 12 gauge steel. It had seams that would be susceptible to a hammer and chisel, and panels that could be defeated over time by an axe or grinding tool. It was not less expensive than a decent used gun; at 600 lbs it required delivery; and I had to have both floor space to store it and floor strength to support it.
My current safe, as noted earlier, is much tougher. It also weighs 1000 lbs and cost $3000 USD.
So I suspect you might be underestimating the costs of safes, or overestimating the security of lockboxes and cabinets.
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Dragline45
New member
This is why I take exception to so many folks leaving guns in their cars.
I often leave a gun in the car but I keep it cable locked under the seat. Most car thefts are smash and grab jobs, it's possible, but unlikely they will stick around to cut the wire.
I thought about a safe until I watched a video showing how very easy it is to break into one. Two guys were in in five minutes. I could probably come up with $1,000 for a safe, but I'm betting a $1,000 safe wouldn't keep out a couple of guys intent on getting into it for very long.
A freind of mine has owned firearms for more than 40 years and has never had a safe. He sees it as leaving everything in one spot will make it easier for the scum to find it. He has his firearms littered throughout the house instead.
A freind of mine has owned firearms for more than 40 years and has never had a safe. He sees it as leaving everything in one spot will make it easier for the scum to find it. He has his firearms littered throughout the house instead.
SauerGrapes
New member
I get the spirit of this, but damn it, my gun is locked up. My doors are locked as are my windows and my ADT alarm system is engaged. I feel much more able to defend my wife and myself with my gun within relatively easy reach. Putting it in a safe back in my closet with any kind of lock on it defeats the sole purpose of my owning the gun in the first place.
If someone takes extraordinary measures to get into my home and steals my TV and my gun, I will feel no responsibility whatsoever for any subsequent ill-advised usage of my stolen property, including robbing a liquor store or watching Survivor.
I don't think your point is unreasonable. Good locks AND a security system. I would just like to see added measures for extended periods away from the home.
If you have people left at home that are not gun savvy, I think further measures are warranted. I'm not singling you out, just making an extended point.
I have no problem with people having 1 or 20 guns out loaded if they're home.
Frank Ettin
Administrator
It would be one thing if when I parked the car I locked it and took the key with me. It would be another thing if I left the key in the car and the door open.MLeake said:So, Gaerek, how would you feel if your car were stolen, and in the course of a high speed pursuit the car thief or a pursuing officer caused one or more traffic deaths?
We would all feel bad, but would you feel responsible?
Our lock boxes are bolted down and no longer portable. And in any case, there's still a difference between a gun that's locked in a lock box and one that is not.MLeake said:...A portable lockbox will keep your small child away from the gun, but will not keep a teenaged thief from taking lockbox, gun, and all...
Of course, that was then and this is now. Now there are safe storage laws and potential criminal liability in some States for the gun owner whose unsecured, loaded gun is taken by a minor who hurts someone with it.MLeake said:...If somebody had implied, back in the 1970s, that a gun owner was morally or legally responsible for the actions of a thief, they would have been laughed at, and rightfully so...
You might not like it, but that's how it is. And if you can get enough people to agree with you, there are ways to try to change the laws.
And you might also want to consider whether some of these laws came about because there was a broad, public perception that too many gun owners were not taking sufficient care to prevent foreseeable unauthorized misuse of their guns. That is how a lot of these sorts of laws come into being.
spacecoast
New member
I thought about a safe until I watched a video showing how very easy it is to break into one. Two guys were in in five minutes. I could probably come up with $1,000 for a safe, but I'm betting a $1,000 safe wouldn't keep out a couple of guys intent on getting into it for very long.
You're right about that, I've seen the same video and it was less than two minutes. But, even a $1000 safe is better than nothing, especially if it's properly bolted down so it can't be tipped over.
armoredman
New member
I still think it's an individual choice, but perhaps where I've grown up and spent most of my life has a lot to do with it - we just don't bother to many people who are minding their own business. I would never require a safe to be mandatory in any way shape or form, but I would support an insurance deduction or rate reduction for having a safe - mine doesn't, darn it. That would do far more to encourage safe ownership than mandating it by legislative fiat.
Frank Ettin
Administrator
Yes, it would get locked, because that would be a meaningless detour into theory.MLeake said:Frank, this train could easily run into the politics of individual accountability vs group think. I am happy to go there, but I suspect the thread would get locked in short order.
The reality is that there are a number of bases upon which a gun owner, in the real world, can be found to have liability for not taking what a judge or jury might think are adequate precautions to prevent, or at least minimize the risk of, unauthorized access to his gun. That is reality whether you think it's right or not. And if you don't think it's right, you have the opportunity to try to change that reality if you get enough others to go along and if the political climate is congenial.
It's easier still to get the gun that's not locked up.Joe_Pike said:I thought about a safe until I watched a video showing how very easy it is to break into one...
Maybe it's absurd to you. But if you didn't take what a judge or jury decides was reasonable care to prevent the criminal taking your gun, you indeed might well be found at least civilly liable. Welcome to the real world.coachteet said:Yeah, some jerk breaks into my home, rifles through my possessions, finds my "in-service" firearms, and somehow I am responsible for arming a criminal? This is absurd.
Bottom line is that in my view the responsible gun owner secures his guns against unauthorized access, and that means keeping it on his person or locking it up. Whether or not he's legally obligated to do so is beside the point. It's a matter of personal responsibility and prudence. If someone chooses not to do so, he shouldn't expect me to congratulate him on his choice; and if he winds up being legally liable, he shouldn't expect any sympathy from me.
BTW, there are ways to display guns and still secured.
Frank, I really don't. In Florida, then in Georgia, and now in Missouri I have lived in states where the law holds homeowners harmless from the results of burglaries/robberies in their homes.
Florida considered changing that, and I helped vote to stop any such change.
Things are different in CA, I am sure.
Florida considered changing that, and I helped vote to stop any such change.
Things are different in CA, I am sure.
Frank Ettin
Administrator
Sorry, but I'd need to see citations to accept your characterization. "Hold harmless" can mean many things in different contexts.MLeake said:Frank, I really don't. In Florida, then in Georgia, and now in Missouri I have lived in states where the law holds homeowners harmless from the results of burglaries/robberies in their homes....
In any case, as I said, that's entirely beside the point. As I said in a prior post:
Frank Ettin said:...Bottom line is that in my view the responsible gun owner secures his guns against unauthorized access, and that means keeping it on his person or locking it up. Whether or not he's legally obligated to do so is beside the point. It's a matter of personal responsibility and prudence. If someone chooses not to do so, he shouldn't expect me to congratulate him on his choice; and if he winds up being legally liable, he shouldn't expect any sympathy from me....
I recently upgraded from a secure-cabinet to a good safe. Financially it was painful, but I appreciate the peace of mind (especially in today's climate where it is important to be beyond reproach).
I've been doing the same routine for years: All guns are locked in the cabinet (now safe), except for my carry gun. My carry gun gets put on when I get dressed in the morning and comes off when I go to bed at night. It sleeps in a lock-box.
I've been doing the same routine for years: All guns are locked in the cabinet (now safe), except for my carry gun. My carry gun gets put on when I get dressed in the morning and comes off when I go to bed at night. It sleeps in a lock-box.