A message for gun owners.

[Frank Ettin]

Frank, please review my posts, and tell me where we disagree on "shoulds."...

First, I'm not going to debate whether or not there should be legal liability. The reality is that some places, under some circumstances, there will be. You might not think there ought to be, but that won't, by itself, change anything.

Second, without considering the possibility of legal liability, I consider it irresponsible for a gun owner not to secure his guns from unauthorized access, and to me that means locking up guns, except for a gun which you might have under your immediate control, on your person. And I'm really not interested in all the rationalizations for not doing so.

Third, if folks don't want an expansion of laws requiring safe storage or imposing liability for unauthorized access to unsecured guns, a good way to head those types of laws off is to voluntarily lock up any gun not under your immediate control on your person. Laws have a way of getting passed when enough of the body politic decides that other people aren't being responsible enough. That's why we have seat belt laws, motorcycle helmet laws, using a cell phone while driving laws, laws prohibiting working on your car on your front lawn, etc. I'm not going to argue about whether those laws are good or rationally necessary. But when enough folks get annoyed enough or scared enough by what other people are doing, they have a way of electing politicians who will enact laws against their doing those things.

 

[BGutzman]

I'm fine with the idea of securing arms... But I refuse to become a prisoner to some set of mandatory security. I use a gun safe and various trigger locks and dead bolts and other things to keep my arms safe and secure.

Should someone violate my house and violate all these protections I feel I have made reasonable steps. Even the strongest safe can be broken. To say that someone braking into a house and stealing arms of the home owner is the homeowners fault is non sense. Safe or no safe a crime has been committed.

You want to stop mass murder. Find a way to out law evil. Any driven individual willing to die to accomplish murder is essentially unstoppable.

Do I recommend a safe and security measures, of course... But what I really recommend is a lawfully carried weapon.

 

[MLeake]

So, Frank, I see you are going to take my responses out of context. This is unusual for you.

In multiple posts, I have said I am all for safes; that I use a safe; that I have lockboxes when I travel; and that I like to have my home defense gun on my person. I have further recommended such actions as good policy - but NOT as mandatory policy.

I have also pointed out that some people who may have real need of a gun may not be able to afford a serious securing system, and that I do not think this should disqualify poor people from firearm ownership - but it could if people try to make safe ownership a requirement for gun ownership.

You then said I should push for legislation supporting my views, at which point I said where I live, and where I have lived, there is not a legal requirement for locking systems.

So, now that we have some context, if we really disagree does that mean you are for mandatory ownership of security systems as a prerequisite for gun ownership? Or are you and I actually on the same page?

 

[therealdeal]

still a good thread from the last time I was here

my "uncle" is a retired NY state trooper and decorated WWII Veteran. The guy has never smoked and he doesn't drink(OK, it really doesn't matter). the point is he is of sound mind and judgement, old-school(from a time way before me), and he doesn't cut corners on safety.

for whatever it is worth:
he claims the kids KNEW to never touch his service weapon

....

there are others too who believe in locking up firearms, but if they leave the house(locked and empty) might just leave the firearm out until they get back. I can't blame a person if their house is robbed. He might down some rum and die too; it's the perp's fault. I recommend knowing the serial numbers so you can report said weapon stolen asap.

I have never done this and I might be wrong, but forget about cars....I heard of at least one case where someone would leave a firearm on the backporch. Personally I would disagree w/this but I am not sure if it is legal or not? I know the consensus from anti states is inbred guns should be locked up. Most think it is a law and just common sense. When I talk to my buddies from where I grew up they all assume it is a law and responsibility to lock guns up. The truth is these laws are a minority. I choose to do so myself and do agree with the notion that "something is better than nothing". at least this way it isn't an accidental or negligent discharge...someone actually had to conive or resort to out right theivery to steal a small safe and open it later(only one example)

 

[Pond James Pond]

MLeake

In response to your point about safes and their costs. As others have said since I went to bed last night, it is about dissuading the opportunist.

No safe is unbreakable, but it is still going to put off the guy who'd initially come in looking for TV, DVDs and other household valuables.

If someone comes to ones home planning to open a gun safe, then they know about it already.

I also believe if you can afford several guns, you can afford a safe. If you only have a couple of hand-guns a small document safe, well-placed and well-secured, is plenty big enough and cheaper to boot.

Still if it became a requirement, I think we can "safely" rely on the American market to provide cheaper alternatives for the less well-off.

I notice that you've asked Frank where you and he disagree, explaining how you have spoken in support of safes.
I also notice I had done the same, especially as I have not said that there must be a law to cover this.
All the same I've been challenged on a desire for a law you seem to think I hold.

I've only said that if people don't take precautions and further shootings may arise, then the likelihood of law increases, and I've also said that if I had a choice of legislation on storage and on what I could buy, I'd choose storage as it seems the more effective prevention for people using guns in criminal ways...

 

[youngunz4life]

I recently upgraded from a secure-cabinet to a good safe. Financially it was painful, but I appreciate the peace of mind (especially in today's climate where it is important to be beyond reproach).

I've been doing the same routine for years: All guns are locked in the cabinet (now safe), except for my carry gun. My carry gun gets put on when I get dressed in the morning and comes off when I go to bed at night. It sleeps in a lock-box.

Sir, i am surprised you lock the weapon up during the wee hours in case of a home invasion(or night-time prowler), but i'm guessing you keep the lockbox close?

 

[Skadoosh]

How can my gun left inside my locked home considered to be 'reckless'?

 

[Hansam]

Having only read the thread up to this point I'd like to chime in now.

First off I have 5 kids ranging from 1 yr old to 14yrs old. Second I have multiple firearms in both long arms (shotguns and ARs) and handguns (various models). Third while I have the majority of them secured I do have four handguns and two long guns that are not secured in a safe. These firearms are for home and personal protection and as such are loaded and left in areas around the house such as atop book cases, in the nightstand drawer, beneath my bed, behind my coat rack etc.

My kids have grown up knowing these firearms are there and loaded. They do KNOW not to touch them. Aside from the 1 yr old my kids have been to the range with me and they have shot with me. They are fully aware of the power of a firearm and know they are not toys to be played with. I am disgusted when people use the excuse that they're parents and are afraid of their kids getting to the firearms. My kids are perfect examples of that excuse being a fallacy. If you're afraid of your kids getting to the firearms then it isn't the kids that's the problem - its YOU as a parent that are the problem and YOU haven't properly instructed your kids. Just because YOU failed as a parent in that aspect don't project your own failure and feelings of inadequacy upon those of us who haven't failed our kids in that area.

That said I don't believe that having these firearms out means that they aren't secured. I have good strong steel outer doors with deadbolts and sturdy windows too. Of course glass can be broken but then I also have dogs - a little one now that seems to know when ANYONE is within 100 ft of the house and a larger dog that puts on a good show of being protective and aggressive to intruders that haven't been welcomed in but I don't know how he'd do in the event of an actual break-in. I also have motion activated lights set up so that they provide a good visible perimeter all around the house out to a few hundred feet (at least).

If my family has gone somewhere for the evening and someone still approaches the house, breaks in, bypasses the dogs and finds my guns that aren't locked in a safe... its not my fault nor am I going to feel guilty if this person uses the gun in further crimes (even killing someone). I don't believe that it is upon me to ensure all my firearms are locked up in a safe. In fact I only lock my other guns up in a safe so that IF this does happen I don't have to replace all of them not because I feel responsible if a crook steals them and uses them in other crimes.

When has it been the liability of the owner if their property is used in a crime by a criminal? Are we condemning law abiding citizens simply because their property was stolen by a criminal and then used in another crime? Is that morally correct regardless of what religion you practice? Its as stupid as the laws in some cities that makes it illegal to start your car and leave it idling without a driver to either cool or heat it before you start driving - punishable by a fine. The official reasoning for most of these laws is to protect us from having our cars stolen. These laws DO exist - they're going to punish the owner for a crime that hasn't been perpetrated yet. In Wisconsin at least 3 cities have laws like these - LaCross, Sheboygan and Milwaukee. I'm sure there are other cities too.

Instead of demonizing law abiding gun owners and putting more and more pressure on us why not demonize the right group of people - the criminals - and put the pressure on them? Let's toughen our laws on criminals - bring back the death penalty in states that don't have them (for murderers) and let's increase the penalties for people who commit crimes. As it is I believe we as a society have become too lenient on criminals. There are even those who would rationalize a burglar's actions as while being illegal still being acceptable because that burglar was poor - or that illegal aliens, while still illegal, should be allowed to be here because they were simply trying to find a better life for themselves. By the way I'm an immigrant - a naturalized citizen - and having gone through all the necessary steps to get into the country legally and become a citizen I despise illegal aliens for cheating those of us who did this properly.

 

[alreds]

gun owners

I totally agree with the premise of securing firearms when they are not being used. I typically don’t have any guns in obvious places where they would be easy to be picked up by anyone other than me. Rather than having a gun in every room, I keep one gun concealed in a secure and readily available place and the rest locked away. That way if suddenly needed it will be there where I know it is.

 

[Skadoosh]

alreds wrote:

I keep one gun concealed in a secure and readily available place and the rest locked away.

I am not sure what you meant by 'secure'...when in the next part of your sentence you say the rest are locked away. Is that concealed gun of yours not locked away?

 

[win-lose]

Sir, i am surprised you lock the weapon up during the wee hours in case of a home invasion(or night-time prowler), but i'm guessing you keep the lockbox close?

Yup, the lock-box is in the bedroom. We have two large dogs which should provide enough warning/time for me to get to the firearm.

 

[srtolly1]

Takes 2 keys to get to my guns after you get past my 2 large dogs (Mastif and a German Shepherd). Then there is a security system to get past as well that is cellular. All hard wired (including the cabinet) steel conduit where not in the walls. Firearms are locked up when not with me and keys in my pocket.

 

[Frank Ettin]

So, Frank, I see you are going to take my responses out of context. This is unusual for you....

Sorry you feel that way. I'm really not trying to have a head-to-head, point-by-point debate.

I think that I've stated my views on this subject and that they're pretty straight forward:

• Post 56:

  ...in my view the responsible gun owner secures his guns against unauthorized access, and that means keeping it on his person or locking it up. Whether or not he's legally obligated to do so is beside the point. It's a matter of personal responsibility and prudence...

  
  
• Post 61:

  ....without considering the possibility of legal liability, I consider it irresponsible for a gun owner not to secure his guns from unauthorized access, and to me that means locking up guns, except for a gun which you might have under your immediate control, on your person...

  
  
• Post 56:

  ...The reality is that there are a number of bases upon which a gun owner, in the real world, can be found to have liability for not taking what a judge or jury might think are adequate precautions to prevent, or at least minimize the risk of, unauthorized access to his gun....

  
  
• Post 61:

  ...if folks don't want an expansion of laws requiring safe storage or imposing liability for unauthorized access to unsecured guns, a good way to head those types of laws off is to voluntarily lock up any gun not under your immediate control on your person....

 

[Gaerek]

So, Gaerek, how would you feel if your car were stolen, and in the course of a high speed pursuit the car thief or a pursuing officer caused one or more traffic deaths?

We would all feel bad, but would you feel responsible?

You're missing the point. I lock my car. I take all the precautions I can. I lock my guns. I take all the precautions I can. If I could put my car in a safe, I would, but I can't, feasibly. If I've taken every reasonable precaution, there's really nothing I can do if someone wants to do something stupid with my property. I however, will not be an accessory to a crime (not legally of course, only in my own conscience) because I'm too cheap or lazy to lock my guns up when they're not in use. A safe is a relatively cheap, and reasonable precaution. Will it stop all thieves? Probably not, but most criminals only go for easy targets. Breaking into a house is incredibly easy. Breaking into a gun safe if much harder.

Criminals don't get guns from gun stores. They get them from the law abiding. The easier you make it for them, the more guns they have.

 

[BGutzman]

Criminals don't get guns from gun stores. They get them from the law abiding. The easier you make it for them, the more guns they have.

Please post a source... Id like to read the specifics and who claims it to be such. Im not saying its not true but I have never seen a credible source on it.

 

[youngunz4life]

I lock my guns up to avoid a tragedy and to always know where they are. If I leave one out near the sofa where I was sitting when i go to catch a movie(recently saw "Parker" w/Jason Statham), I might leave the weapon out. Of course I have a great alarm and my house, doors, & windows are always secure amongst other things. Basically my safe isn't even for thieves...I don't have enough weapons/valuables. I am just happy to know if some idiot kid fired the weapon it wouldn't be in my home...it would be wherever he lugged the safe.

If someone breaks into my house and steals my gun he is liable for any and all issues that arise from that point on 150%. It isn't my fault. It is my responsibility(in my opinion) to make sure the gun are secured so nobody gets a hold of it whereas an accidental or negligent discharge can take place or some other tragedy. I believe my safe accomplishes this due to an electronic code as the only way to correctly open it. The long guns are stored in a locked case.

 

[BGutzman]

The true tragedy is that lawful owners must once again be punished... Same old dance.

 

[lcpiper]

Kids are grown, wife and I live alone.

One on my desk by my computer where I spend my free time.

One on my nightstand and a shotgun under the mattress for nighttime emergencies.

One by the front door out of sight but convenient, yes I do answer the door with it behind my back.

The best of the rest just fit in my safes, the odd balls are store in gun cases in a closet because a 12GA Bolt Action Goose Gun is too much gun for you

 

[Gaerek]

Please post a source... Id like to read the specifics and who claims it to be such. Im not saying its not true but I have never seen a credible source on it.

My source is common sense. Someone with a criminal record cannot buy a gun. I'm assuming, of course, that NICS denies them. I'm sure a small number were purchased legally by the criminal (perhaps before they had a criminal record), Or maybe due to a fault in NICS, but the vast majority, common sense dictates, do not. Keep in mind that a person to person sale to a felon is still an illegal sale, whether the seller knew it or not (though it is a legal grey area whether he'll get in trouble if he didn't know).

As for a credible source, I do not have one, and honestly, don't feel like looking. I know I've read secondary sources that mention it, but never seen actual statistics. I'm just curious, how else could a criminal (assuming NICS is 100%, which we know it's probably not, and I already said a small number could have been done this way) get a gun if it wasn't purchased, or stolen from a law abiding citizen? Smuggled in from Mexico I suppose? Though most guns go South...not North.

EDIT: I also want to make clear, I do not believe in mandating people to keep guns in a safe. That just makes gun ownership more of a burden, especially for those that might need one, and don't have a whole lot of money. All I'm trying to say is, secure your weapons as much as you reasonable can, within your means. I would be adamantly against any laws that mandated otherwise.

 

[ChasingWhitetail91]

I don't own a safe, that's what my firearms are for The only reason I would buy a safe is if I had children in my home or didn't trust my nieghbors while I was away.