380 vs Moose

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JustJake said:
The issue is moose and bear attacks, and the article linked in my first post disproves your claim.
Respectfully, the article linked in your first post doesn't prove anything. It's an anecdotal account, and it seems to have been written by someone who doesn't know a lot about bears, bear spray, or even possibly about firearms.
 

JustJake

New member
Respectfully, the article linked in your first post doesn't prove anything. It's an anecdotal account ***
Either you read a different article or have reading-comprehension issues.

The author cites/links to (and comparatively discusses) at least six different studies. Not “anecdotal,” and the real-world case he initially discusses supports the junk-science thesis regarding the skewed pro-spray studies.

Did you follow-up and actually read his linked materials before knee-jerking a post?

***and it seems to have been written by someone who doesn't know a lot about bears, bear spray, or even possibly about firearms.

:rolleyes: And you would know this, ... how?
 

ghbucky

New member
Here is a study:

https://wildlife.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.2193/2006-452

Efficacy of Bear Deterrent Spray in Alaska
Abstract: We present a comprehensive look at a sample of bear spray incidents that occurred in Alaska, USA, from 1985 to 2006. We analyzed 83 bear spray incidents involving brown bears (Ursus arctos; 61 cases, 74%), black bears (Ursus americanus; 20 cases, 24%), and polar bears (Ursus maritimus; 2 cases, 2%). Of the 72 cases where persons sprayed bears to defend themselves, 50 (69%) involved brown bears, 20 (28%) black bears, and 2 (3%) polar bears. Red pepper spray stopped bears' undesirable behavior 92% of the time when used on brown bears, 90% for black bears, and 100% for polar bears. Of all persons carrying sprays, 98% were uninjured by bears in close-range encounters. All bear—inflicted injuries (n = 3) associated with defensive spraying involved brown bears and were relatively minor (i.e., no hospitalization required). In 7% (5 of 71) of bear spray incidents, wind was reported to have interfered with spray accuracy, although it reached the bear in all cases. In 14% (10 of 71) of bear spray incidents, users reported the spray having had negative side effects upon themselves, ranging from minor irritation (11%, 8 of 71) to near incapacitation (3%, 2 of 71). Bear spray represents an effective alternative to lethal force and should be considered as an option for personal safety for those recreating and working in bear country. (JOURNAL OF WILDLIFE MANAGEMENT 72(3):640–645; 2008)
 
Here is a study:

https://wildlife.onlinelibrary.wiley....2193/2006-452

Efficacy of Bear Deterrent Spray in Alaska

I have read a lot of Herrero's works. He does a lot of research. He is also definitely biased for bear spray near as much as Weingarten is against bear spray.
https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-1-d&q=weingarten+bear+spray

You stated that bear spray IS effective against bears. It IS effective against bears when the wind is in your favor, when not deployed too soon, when the bear isn't running too fast, when the bear isn't really determined.

What Herrero isn't telling you with the stats you cite is that people survive bear "attacks" in very high numbers without the use of bear spray or firearms.

Notice that the information you cite isn't about bear attacks. It is "bear incidents" and that those 72 cases are NOT all attacks. Bear spray was used to stop "undesirable behavior." What does that mean? That is everything from bears in the garbage, bears too close to campgrounds, bluff charges, etc. http://www.bearsmart.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/01/pepper-spray-Herrero-Higgins.pdf
 

seanc

New member
I once yelled "Hey BEAR!" and scared off a black bear in Colorado. I should write an article about that...

stinkeypete
This woman’s sport is racing dog sleds in Alaska. She’s not an idiot.
She may know something about dogs and cold weather gear, but that doesn't mean she knows what she's talking about for guns. She also doesn't seem to have really thought through what she'll do if she's not trailed by someone on a snowmobile that she could hide behind. Lucky her friend with a rifle was just an hour away. Sounds like she had cell service there too. It's my understanding the Iditarod generally extends beyond cell phone range. Her plan sucks.
 

44 AMP

Staff
MSN had this incident in their "news" today, mentioned several times how she "emptied her gun" without effect.

NO mention was made of one shot from her friend's rifle killed the moose....

Moose are big and moose are tough but a bullet in the right spot kills them. I suspect none of her bullets went to the right spot, her friend's on the other hand, clearly did.
 

ghbucky

New member
I wonder how many bears have died in the process of a 'bluff charge'?

There is no statistical difference in using firearms against bears then not using anything:

https://wildlife.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1002/jwmg.342

We compiled, summarized, and reviewed 269 incidents of bear–human conflict involving firearms that occurred in Alaska during 1883–2009. Encounters involving brown bears (Ursus arctos; 218 incidents, 81%), black bears (Ursus americanus; 30 incidents, 11%), polar bears (Ursus maritimus; 6 incidents, 2%), and 15 (6%) unidentified species provided insight into firearms success and failure. A total of 444 people and at least 367 bears were involved in these incidents. We found no significant difference in success rates (i.e., success being when the bear was stopped in its aggressive behavior) associated with long guns (76%) and handguns (84%). Moreover, firearm bearers suffered the same injury rates in close encounters with bears whether they used their firearms or not. Bears were killed in 61% (n = 162) of bear–firearms incidents. Additionally, we identified multiple reasons for firearms failing to stop an aggressive bear. Using logistic regression, the best model for predicting a successful outcome for firearm users included species and cohort of bear, human activity at time of encounter, whether or not the bear charged, and if fish or game meat was present. Firearm variables (e.g., type of gun, number of shots) were not useful in predicting outcomes in bear–firearms incidents. Although firearms have failed to protect some users, they are the only deterrent that can lethally stop an aggressive bear. Where firearms have failed to protect people, we identified contributing causes. Our findings suggest that only those proficient in firearms use should rely on them for protection in bear country. © 2012 The Wildlife Society.

I wonder how many of us are trained to proficiency in making lethal shots at close range on a charging 500 lb animal?

If you are looking for an excuse to kill an animal, well I guess a 'self defense' shooting suffices. If you are looking for a way to avoid an attack and not kill the animal, bear spray is your best friend.
 

JustJake

New member
I wonder how many bears have died in the process of a 'bluff charge'?
Who cares? :rolleyes:

The primacy value is that the human(s) in the encounter survived unmauled and alive, and were not mauled or killed because they failed to “correctly interpret” the charging bear’s “intentions.”

There is no statistical difference in using firearms against bears then not using anything: https://wildlife.onlinelibrary.wiley....1002/jwmg.342
Wrong. Another skewed study hard at work. Thanks for identifying it. :rolleyes:

I wonder how many of us are trained to proficiency in making lethal shots at close range on a charging 500 lb animal?
That’s for each individual who lives, works, or recreates in “bear country” to figure out.

If you are looking for an excuse to kill an animal, well I guess a 'self defense' shooting suffices. If you are looking for a way to avoid an attack and not kill the animal, bear spray is your best friend.
Alaska’s DLP law allows for defense of self and others against attacking/aggressive bears. It has nothing to do with hunting bears or poaching them.

As it should, the DLP law recognizes the primacy of human life over the animal’s life in the gravest extreme of circumstances.

All the bias pro-spray studies of human/bear “incidents” are result-orientated, in that they’re premised on the bear surviving the encounter alive and unharmed, regardless of whether the human(s) are mauled or killed. So they commingle the data, combining spray cases against bears which are vague or ambiguous and usually casual with cases where the bear was aggressive or attacking.

Then they say: “See? Spray works.”

They intentionally fail to distinguish between the types of bears involved - between the cases of spray used on causal or “curious” bears and the cases of spray used on clearly aggressive/predatory bears. In the latter cases, spray seldom prevented the human(s) from being mauled or killed. And that’s notwithstanding the wind-direction and distance issues that diminish or negate the spray’s effectiveness.

OTOH, where gunfire was used, it was nearly 100% effective against aggressive/predatory bears. The charge was stopped or turned and the human(s) walked away unmauled and alive. True, the bear was either killed or seriously wounded (and later put down), ... but again there’s that sticky question in these encounters of whose life do we value more.

We certainly know how the anti-gun/animal-rights folks answer that. They reveal it in their bias, result-driven “studies.” :rolleyes:
 
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ghbucky

New member
OTOH, where gunfire was used, it was nearly 100% effective against aggressive/predatory bears

100%? This is pure fabricated nonsense. I just provided a study that proved that guns provide no statistical survival advantage over doing nothing.

If you kill a charging bear, how do you know if it was a bluff charge or the real deal? You don't.

You just killed the bear. If you miss (or don't get in a fatal shot) and it isn't a bluff charge you are dead.

Sprays are proven to stop a charging animal in their tracks. I seriously don't know what is up with your denial of this reality.

I'm done here.
 

JustJake

New member
I learned I’m staying away from moose - the more you know.
While that sounds good in theory, when you're actually out and about in moose or bear country, that might not be so easy.

The critter gets a say in the matter too. ;)
 

JustJake

New member
OTOH, where gunfire was used, it was nearly 100% effect against aggressive/predatory bears
100%? This is pure fabricated nonsense. I just provided a study that proved that guns provide no statistical survival advantage over doing nothing.
:rolleyes: ... Apparently you flunked read-comprehension .
"Nearly 100%" = 95% effectiveness against bear attacks:

https://www.ammoland.com/2019/03/pi...r-attack-95-effective-63-cases/#axzz5xQu5Cnyv

Gunfire works. It stops attacking bears from mauling or killing people.

If you kill a charging bear, how do you know if it was a bluff charge or the real deal? You don't.
So what? Nothing requires the human to correctly "mind-read" a bear's intentions. All that matters is the bear's attack was a threat to life and limb, and the human survived the attack alive and unmauled.
 

mehavey

New member
>
> "She said no musher would ever travel with a rifle or a large caliber gun...
> with all the jostling of the sled, the larger guns could easily go off...."
>

The "Not-too-Intelligent" factor is strong here...
(just a thought)
 

ghbucky

New member
To enter the Iditarod requires that the musher complete at least 2 500+ miles sled dog races. This lady has more hours in the Alaskan bush than probably anyone else on these boards.

Calling her stupid because she isn't versed in firearms is pretty... well, stupid.

And this particular musher is an ER nurse working on her masters degree.
 

mehavey

New member
Repeating....
>
> "She said no musher would ever travel with a rifle or a large caliber gun...
> with all the jostling of the sled, the larger guns could easily go off...."
>
Calling her stupid because she isn't versed in firearms is pretty... well, stupid.

I refrain from my first reaction.... other than to say going in harm's way without some reasonable knowledge of the tools/weapons req'd to keep you and your troops/dogs alive in a potentially deadly environment is ... not very smart

To then say that carrying a 380 to defend one's self in the event of attack by a half-ton of enraged animal -- be it Brown Bear or Moose is ... not very smart

To say that carrying that 380 in lieu of a competent rifle because "...the larger guns could easily go off...." is potentially terminal in the "Not-too-Intelligent" department.

postscript: Education is no substitute for basic street intelligence in the Wild (sorry about the mixed metaphor)
But some of the dumbest people I have ever known have been PhDs.:rolleyes:
(also some of the nicest... but that's another thread.) ;)

.
 
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