Why you should not care about 9mm vs .40 vs .45 vs something else pistol caliber

[Mr. Whimsy]

I see a lot of fearful people with too much gun who simply cannot and never will be able to shoot accurately.

That is the sadness of it all.

All because the Internet has convinced them that Mr. Crackhead T. Bulletsponge is lurking around every corner waiting to slit their throat over $5. I mean, today's criminals simply cannot be killed without a wooden stake through the heart. At what point do we begin to suspect the good-guy's marksmanship in these "failures to stop"?

 

[Bernieb90]

I agree that caliber is much less important than shot placement. This holds true for service calibers in the 9mm and up category. However when we start to dip down into the BUG, and mouse gun power levels we are giving up a significant amount of terminal performance. I don't know of any .380 ACP load that will penetrate 13" of gelatin, and expand to .63" diameter like 9mm loads can. .38 special is far superior to .380 as well with some of the best loads like 135gr Gold Dot, and DPX passing 12" and expanding very well in both bare, and denim covered gelatin.

There is also the issue of reliability, and I have found recoil operated pistols to be much less sensitive to dirt, that blowback operated guns. My dad has a Beretta 84 .380 that starts to have failures to feed after about 80 rounds. Wiping the feed ramp, and lubricating the rails restores reliability. His Sig P226 can fire hundreds of round with no cleaning, and no issues.

FWIW I shoot a 1911 because it fits my hand better than anything else out there. I also shoot it better, and faster than my Sig P229 in .40. I guess it is a win win situation for me in that case.

 

[hardworker]

My caliber can beat your caliber.

 

[johnbt]

" a few millimeters of bullet diameter "

But a very small change in diameter makes a very large change in the area of the circle. Run some numbers through the formula and see for yourself.

 

[Evyl Robot]

When I bought my pistol, I decided that I wanted a S&W M&Pc. I initially thought I'd get the 9mm, but my wife has one of those. I'm not crazy about .40 and I consider .357 Sig to be a boutique round. So, I bought the .45 because it's different than my wife's. She likes both calibers, I like both calibers. I figured if we wanted to swap every now and then we could. We each shoot both calibers well.

 

[Fiv3]

Wait, so you're saying that 9mm won't bounce off a bad guy as he swats my pistol away deeming it for taking down "euro trash"?

I refuse to marry to a single caliber. I am a caliber polygamist. I make sure that I can shoot well what I carry. I don't feel undergunned packing just a .38 snub nose. I have a small collection of firearms that allows me to pick and choose the right gun for the right application.

If I'm going out into the woods, the big ol' .357 comes along. Should that trip involve maybe traversing to sun warmed rocks on which snakes may warm, a couple loads of .38 snake shot.
A quick trip out and about, a sub compact .45 is a welcome companion. 6+1 of 230gr thump is hopefully plenty. Or a night on the town might dictate a .38 snub nose revolver (I might not even pack a reload!)
TEOTWAWKI: High capacity 9mm. Why? I may want more firepower over stopping power. 9mm is easy to stumble across and out of a heavy gun can be fired pretty effectively even by a novice shooter (like my wife).
After TEOTWAWKI: Well, Einstein said we'd be fighting with sticks and stones, but I have a pretty good supply of black powder supplies

In the end we all pays our monies and takes our chances. Pack what you shoot best, and hope the odds are in your favor should you ever need it, God forbid.

 

[.357SIG]

I see a lot of fearful people with too much gun who simply cannot and never will be able to shoot accurately.

That is the sadness of it all.

All because the Internet has convinced them that Mr. Crackhead T. Bulletsponge is lurking around every corner waiting to slit their throat over $5. I mean, today's criminals simply cannot be killed without a wooden stake through the heart. At what point do we begin to suspect the good-guy's marksmanship in these "failures to stop"?

This is the ONLY reason I get into these debates. I've met too many folks (new shooters) who have bought something too big on a gun store employees "recommendation", and regretted every second of it. It does everyone in the gun-owning community a disservice when this happens (on one level or another).

 

[DonutGuy]

of 9mm, .40 and .45....I shoot the .45GAP the most accurate and have the quickest follow up shots with it, I won't carry anything less.

 

[cnj]

Same for me.....but with 9mm.

 

[DoctorXring]

Caliber Selection

.



This is the best article I've read about caliber selection.
This guy has lots of data/experience from shooting scenes and puts
this all together in a useable discussion.

I think you will find interesting what he emphasizes --


http://www.neiassociates.org/caliber.htm



good shooting, dxr


.

 

[Bernieb90]

No this is.

http://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=19887

Dr. Roberts is one of the most respected wound ballistics experts there is. Every major law enforcement agency in the country as well as the military use properly calibrated ordinance gelatin for comparative ballistic testing. Not a single agency in the world currently relies on the data in the above article.

Clearly the larger the expanded diameter the better. However the difference is not earth shattering, but it may be enough to make a difference in a 1 out of 1000 shootings given identical placement.

To all the .45 ACP ball fans not that expanded 9mm has quite a bit more frontal area than .45 ACP ball. Service caliber pistols should always be loaded with quality JHP ammunition where legal.

 

[cougar gt-e]

But a very small change in diameter makes a very large change in the area of the circle. Run some numbers through the formula and see for yourself

True, that's why I want a .30 cal bullet built like an expanding broad head used with arrows. Obviously would need to be built differently for the velocity etc etc, but imagine a .30 cal pocket pistol with a 2" cutting diameter whallop... watch out Mr Crackhead T Bulletsponge, you're go'n down!

If that's not possible (or legal), then I'll settle for a caliber starting with a 4.

 

[HawkeyeNRAlifer]

All handguns are a compromise we live when carrying. Most would be better served if carrying a rifle or a shotgun, but they are darn hard to conceal. So we settle. I say pick a gun you can shoot well, are comfortable with and can carry. It's been said many times that any gun in your hand when you need one is better than the one you left at home. My only self defense shooting was with a little 32 acp and it was a one shot stop. If I had to do it over, I'd take a 12 gauge. But there are no do overs, just lessons learned.

 

[Shane Tuttle]

All due respect, Bernie, but you really think that chart is the end-all be-all answer to the OP's question? That table has been circulated here more often than chlorine in a pool pump.

It's merely ONE finding on ONE test.

 

[Jehzsa]

I also think that shot placement is very important.

That's why I carry an M-79.

In a horizontal shoulder holster.

However, the xtra rounds carrier can get a tad clumsy.

 

[.357SIG]

Only problem with the area calculations (for bullet diameters) is that they are not being seen in proper context...they are very often used as just one last string to hang on to for the sake of argument.

Put a 1/2" hole in a 10-mile-long 1" pipe network feeding from a circuit containing a few thousand gallons...gravity fed. Heck, put 6 holes. Do the same with a 3/8" hole on an identical network. Do you really feel the difference is worth talking about? So one drains in 23 hrs and the other in 24? That's about how it relates for blood loss and damage in a body. You will never realize a difference in bleed rates, or the minor increase in damaged soft tissue. It would be days...

We're not even considering adding bandages, considering internal clotting factors, etc., which would all hinder a bleed out. Tissue damage? It will either be immediately vital for life or not. Sure, I can hurt more of something with my larger bullet, which may lead to faster death eventually, but that's not going to be a fight ender RIGHT NOW.

 

[cougar gt-e]

Only problem with the area calculations (for bullet diameters) is that they are not being seen in proper context...they are very often used as just one last string to hang on to for the sake of argument.

Good point.

Stopping power is really a way of discussing internal damage. The greater tissue damage, the greater the bleeding rate and blood loss is what stops the vast majority of BG's. It would probably be more relevant to discuss the volume of damaged tissue. From the ballistic tests, gather the diameter of the expanded bullet to calculate the area, then multiply by the penetration distance to get volume in cubic inches.

I've done it for my own enlightenment. There is a VERY large difference when you do the math. But don't trust my statements, do the math for yourself and see.


But with that said, placing that volume of damaged tissue in the calf is not as effective as placing it in the middle of the sternum. Shot placement pretty much trumps all.

 

[FM12]

So...whaddya like? 9mm 10mm .44 .45?

Just had to ask, sorry.

 

[Bernieb90]

All due respect, Bernie, but you really think that chart is the end-all be-all answer to the OP's question? That table has been circulated here more often than chlorine in a pool pump.

It's merely ONE finding on ONE test.

I am really not getting your point. I was responding to DoctorXRing's use of Marshall's data as a valid resource for ammunition selection.
Would you not agree that given similar bullet design a .45 will always expand to a larger final diameter than a 9mm. Larger expanded diameter bullets crush more tissue, and do more damage given adequate penetration. Again with good shot placement this may not be a critical issue, but it may make a difference in some cases. If the shooter can't shoot the larger calibers well he/she should use the largest caliber they are comfortable with.

Service caliber Handguns are poor "stoppers" compared to rifles regardless of caliber. A bigger hole in the right place beats a smaller hole.

 

[Fiv3]

I also like to look at firepower capacity in relation to caliber used. Unless we are talking about very small deeply concealed weapons where a compact Glock IWB carries 6+1 of .45acp and an even smaller/lighter LCP carries the same capacity in .380, one has to look at the amount of available rounds in the carried gun as well.

I been told by a few law enforcement professionals, rightly or wrongly, that if I am in a dire situation and the immediate safety of bi-standers is not a concern I should empty my magazine into my target. When asked, "I was scared for my life, and pulled the trigger until the gun stopped firing."

While that might be sound advice for a very novice gun owner in a home defense situation, I think that as a responsible gun owner and daily carrier out in public that well placed and controlled shots until the threat stops (1 shot or 20) is to be striven toward. As stewards of our 2nd amendment right, we should be concerned not only for our own well being but the lives of the general public. It's no less tragic if I shoot the guy that was going to shoot me if I drill an 8 year old in the head with a careless shot.

That said, hypothetically lets say you only hit 60% of your shots on a target at center mass. I'm talking total non-grazing misses. If you have chosen to carry 8 rounds of .45 or 18 rounds of 9mm, you're talking about 5 hits compared to about 11. Does this make a difference? Probably not, but I suppose it could.

But, once again, I feel comfortable in my skill regardless if I am carrying a single .38 snub, a hi-cap 9mm, or a full sized .45. I try to weigh out my probabilities to see what makes the most sense (going uptown for lunch or downtown after dark) and carry accordingly. I just like to be proficient with numerous calibers and guns, just in case.