Why you should not care about 9mm vs .40 vs .45 vs something else pistol caliber

[Forseti]

The debate is seemingly endless over a few millimeters of bullet diameter in pistol caliber. But I really think it just doesn't matter.

Some forum lines do state some of what I've put below, but the real factors to consider as an individual is shot placement control and number of rounds you can send in a controlled fashion downrange in about three to four seconds when operating under high stress.

First...the point of it all...(edited based on valid comment further below)...the point if being used in a justifiable self defense action. (competitive shooting has a very different set of objectives, and does not apply to what I've written below)
The end user is trying to cause a catastrophic loss of blood pressure in the target that "stops" the target, similar to a sleeper hold...that the brain is starved, the target stops its criminal activities.

With that the case...you want holes in certain spots.

Big holes ARE better than smaller holes, but you still need them in certain spots to be effective. More holes in the right spots are much better than fewer holes.

And...what I've found going through training that attempts some level of realism...the stress factor of exchanging rounds is NOTHING like standing in a booth at the range, squeezing off tight little groups. Standing at the range allows perfect sight usage. Not the case in the stress situation, its far less than perfect. Surprisingly less, behavior is very different.

And you can send a lot of rounds downrange in under four seconds. So having a lot of them is a good thing if you are defending yourself. Because a lot of your hits are going to be sub-optimal. Some may miss.

SO...if you can send a tight pattern of 9mm rounds downrange in a really short time with fast sight usage...9mm may be best for you.

If you can do that better with another caliber, then THAT's your caliber.

If you want to *attempt* to normalize the round for you, see if you can find a range that "rents" guns. Take a multi caliber platform (Glock being an easy one to find). See how you do with similar size/weights with the different calibers with fast firing (if the range allows it).

The answer may surprise you.

 

[pichon]

I agree with that, but I would just feel better knowing I am carrying a .380 or larger. I would not want to go any smaller than that.

 

[Forseti]

With the "new research" showing modern .380 self defense ammo is just about as good as .38 ammo fired from a short barreled revolver, I wonder how a medium sized, high capacity .380 would do vs a 9mm with the "control-ability" test...

Its probably an unmarketable gun for the US that no one would consider a good product to manufacture. .380 ammo is currently expensive, there are lots of good medium sized 9mm's out there instead of a large .380 pistol, and there is the issue of "round reputation" for a sales perspective...your comment being the perfect example....

It could be the felt differences between a 9mm luger and .380 are so close that you would be better off with the more powerful 9mm round.

But your comment does make me wonder....no way to test it though. You would need something shooting .380 with the capacity and size of something like a Glock 19 up against a real Glock 19 to see how it would fair. No one will make a thing like that for the US market cost effectively. It just would not sell here.

 

[gc70]

But I really think it just doesn't matter.

Tell that to the millions of electrons that have given their all in these endless debates.

 

[pichon]

You would need something shooting .380 with the capacity and size of something like a Glock 19 up against a real Glock 19 to see how it would fair. No one will make a thing like that for the US market cost effectively. It just would not sell here.

There is the Glock 25.

 

[Shane Tuttle]

First...the point of it all...
The end user is trying to cause a catastrophic loss of blood pressure in the target that "stops" the target, similar to a sleeper hold...that the brain is starved, the target stops its criminal activities.

That doesn't describe my objective...

Otherwise, I agree with your findings for the most part. Use the biggest cartridge you can comfortably use proficiently.

 

[Forseti]

Shane Tuttle, I was describing the use of a pistol in a justifiable self defense action...

Sport/competitive shooting or something like it does have a different set of objectives. You're right, I did not clarify that....probably should have....I'll revise my first post.

If not competitive shooting or self defense...what ARE the objectives you are referring to?

 

[Forseti]

The Glock 25 and 28, to my knowledge, are not available readily in the US market, and have a European and South American focus...that's why I was careful to say US market....

 

[Shane Tuttle]

Still doesn't decribe my objective...

Thanks for providing clarification, though. I did see what you were saying...

 

[BlueTrain]

There are in fact "high capacity" (a relative term) .380 automatics sold in the US, mostly from Beretta and CZ, so it isn't like they are unmarketable. For a person truly interested in self-defense, the cost of the ammunition is irrelevant, I think. You don't have to shoot 100 rounds every weekend to be proficient. And furthermore, most .380s are smaller than most 9mm automatics, just as most 9mm pistols are smaller than most .45 ACP pistols, although I realize that "most" is a weasel word and there are different aspects to size, there being three dimensions. However, "most" 9mm pistols have no more recoil than "most" .380 pistols, so the recoil of the handgun isn't always what you expect it to be, based on the energy of the cartridge.

 

[voyager4520]

In handgun cartridges, the only real factors are shot placement and penetration. Most handgun cartridges penetrate at least 12 inches in ballistic gelatin, and that's all you really need.

The only reason that I prefer .40 is because it's always on the shelf at my local stores. Especially during the ammo shortage, not only could I find .40, I had a selection to choose from.

 

[IMightBeWrong]

You're free to feel that it doesn't matter. Many people agree with that as well. But I'm sure you've heard the old adage about opinions. Many people think the debate does matter, though, and those people have plenty of options for ammunition.

 

[pichon]

I think caliber matters less than bullet selection.

 

[jmortimer]

If you agree with the late great Jeff Cooper then you would not get a "minor" caliber and stick with a non-expanding flat point bullet and let the meplat do the destructive work. I agree with Col. Cooper - an 11.5mm/.45 ACP flat point need not expand to be effective. Otherwise, I agree with the idea above it's more about the ammunition than the "caliber."

 

[dlb435]

Finally, some sanity about caliber choice!
There is no such thing as the "perfect" round. But we don't need perfect; we just need good enough. There is published data on the internet about one shot stopping power. It ranges from a high of 92% for the .45 to a low of 22% for the 22LR. The cutoff for a practical man stopper seems to be the 38/9mm range with about 84%. Drop to a 32 ACP and it is only 63%.
Do the math and a 10 round 9mm is just as good as a 7 round 45 ACP.
Even the little 32 ACP is just as good as a 45 if you can get 4 shots off.
Caliber choice is very subjective. Consider the following:
Are you comortable shooting that caliber?
Do you want the round to penetrate doors, walls or windshields?
Does the pistol need to be concealed?
How heavy is the pistol, will you be able to carry it comfortably?
Is the pistol of your choice safe and reliable?
Even this check list can change from day to day. Lets say you choose the 45 with +P hollow points and keep it on the nightstand.
The house fills up with kids and guest. Now the 45 with +P is not so good.
Put the 45 away and go to a smaller caliber with Glasers so you don't shoot through the walls.
Nothing is perfect. There is no one choice for ammo, caliber or pistols.

 

[skoro]

I really think it just doesn't matter.

I think it matters, but just not nearly as much as a lot of gunboard commandos seem to think. I'd rather have a 45 than a 32 if I was forced to defend myself. But I think in MOST situations, the 32 would probably serve.

I also think the difference between 9mm, 40 and 45 is marginal. A good shot with any of the three with good ammo is going to take care of business.

 

[pilpens]

Recently, my nephew and his friend were mug at gun point. This made me think that if it happened to me and I had to shoot my way out of the situation, I probably would want a 45 than a 9.
.45 brings confidence (compared to a 9)? yes. Scientific? well...
Certainly, shot placement is very important but if bullet with same design hits at the same spot, 45 will probably be more painful than 9mm.
My main carry piece is a 9mm and no rush to replace it. Sometimes, I carry a 1911 .45. At home, it is usually just my 9mm that is loaded but now, the .45 magazine is loaded, too.
My crystal ball tells of a HK USPc .45 in the future.

 

[Xfire68]

What capacity .380 are you thinking about?

I see that the Glock 25 (Not available here) has a capacity of 15 Standard and 17-19 Optional.

The Browning BDA has a 13rd capacity which I would not call "High" but it certainly is better then most "Normal" .380's with a 7+1 or 6+1. The BDA is also a larger gun that fits bigger hands much better then say a Walther PPK does.

How well do I shoot it? Don't know don't have one so I guess it goes back to the "It just doesn't matter."

 

[Patriot86]

Yep sums it up pretty well, If you can score a group in 22LR right in the head every time day or night, light or dark that might be the gun for you. The body doesn't work too well without the brain.

 

[Tanner777]

pistol calibers

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