Why the 5.56 rifle for home defense?

Status
Not open for further replies.
M

marine6680

New member
They may run, but they cease to post a direct threat at that point. So pretty much instant incapacitation in that sense.
 
D

davidsog

New member
Those are just surplus 5.56 or made using the same components.
Click to expand...

LOL, so the Army is going to buy surplus 5.56mm NATO ball, test it and conclude it has the same performance as current 5.56mm NATO ball.

You really think that? :p

COTS - Commercial Off The Shelf means just that.....

The latest and greatest "most lethal" wonder bullet being produced.....

How many states is 5.56 illegal for deer hunting in?
Click to expand...

Alabama- centerfire
Alaska- centerfire
Alberta- .23 and up centerfire
Arizona- centerfire
Arkansas- .22 and up centerfire
California- centerfire
Colorado- .24 and up, 70grn or larger bullet/ minimum of 1000ft/lbs at 100 yards
Connecticut- .243 and up if legal in your area
Delaware- shotgun/muzzle loader
Florida- centerfire
Georgia- .22 and up centerfire
Hawaii- Any rifle with at least 1200 ft/lbs of ME. This would start at around .223 I think
Idaho- Centerfire (cannot weigh more than 16 lbs?)
Illinois- Shotgun/ML/Pistol only
Indiana- Rifles with pistol calibers/shotgun/ML/Pistols
Iowa- .24 or larger centerfire only for antlerless season in part of the state.
Kansas- .23 or larger centerfire (actually says larger than .23 so maybe .24 is the mininum)
kentucky- centerfire
Louisiana- .22 and up centerfire
Maine- .22 magnum rimfire and up!
Manitoba- Centerfire, but it says .23 and below not recommended. Does not say illegal though.
Maryland- ME of at least 1200 ft/lbs
Mass- Shotgun/ML
Michigan- centerfire in certain areas
Minnesota- .24 and up centerfire
Mississippi- No restrictions that I could find
Missouri- centerfire
Montana- No restrictions
Nebraska- Rifles with 900 ft/lbs or more at 100 yards
Nevada- .22 centerfire and up
New Hampshire- centerfire
New Jersey- shotgun only
New Mexico- centerfire
New York- centerfire
North Carolina- No restrictions
North Dakota- .22-.49 centerfire
Nova Scotia- .23 and up
Ohio- Shotgun/ML
Oklahoma- centerfire with 55 grn or heavier bullet
Ontario- centerfire
Oregon- .22 centerfire and up
Pennsylvania- centerfire
Quebec- 6mm/.243 and up
Rhode Island- shotgun/ML
Saskatchewan- .24 and up
South Carolina- centerfire
South Dakota- rifles with 1,000 ft/lbs or more ME
Tennessee- centerfire
Texas- centerfire
Utah- centerfire
vermont- No restriction
Virginia- .23 centerfire and up
Washington- .24 centerfire and up
West Virginia- .25 rimfire and up and all centerfire
Wisconsin- .22 centerfire and up
Wyoming- .23 centerfire and up

https://www.huntingnet.com/forum/whitetail-deer-hunting/227252-legal-rifle-calibers-state.html


5.56 NATO or 223 Remington is considered too light for deer by most experts,
Click to expand...

https://www.biggamelogic.com/Articl...nting-cartridge-for-White-tailed-deer-hunting

I am a successful hunter and have killed deer in other states with a .223 caliber rifle. Why can't I use my .223 to hunt deer in Washington State?
Click to expand...

Big game, except cougar, must be hunted with a minimum of .24 caliber (6mm) centerfire rifle. Cougar may be hunted with a .22 caliber centerfire rifle. Rimfire rifles are not legal for big game.

In Washington, with the exception of cougar, a .24 caliber rifle is legal for all big game, including deer, goat, sheep, elk, and moose. Although it is okay to do so, few hunters actually use a .24 caliber rifle to hunt game larger than deer, due to the lack of knockdown power. The Washington Fish and Wildlife Commission did not want to establish a sliding scale of legal rifle calibers by species, so it opted for the .24 caliber rule.
Click to expand...

https://wdfw.wa.gov/help/questions/...use+my+.223+to+hunt+deer+in+Washington+State?
 
D

davidsog

New member
You aren’t going to get consistent one round incapacitation on a human being from anything remotely man portable.
Click to expand...


Yeah but we can do better than an average of 8 rounds required to put them out of the fight.
 
M

marine6680

New member
Ok... Well...

What loads did they test?

They specifically said commercial 5.56 ammo... Not commercial 223 ammo.

And I still haven't seen any 62gr softpoint 5.56 in the store, let alone ballistic topped vmax in 5.56 spec loadings.
 
2

2damnold4this

New member
The study didn't find a significant difference between 5.56 rounds in CQB lethality, whether they were COTS, M855, M193 or other. The study also didn't find any difference using 7.62 M80 ball fired from an M14.



link:

The specific values of the chart are not meaningful; what is meaningful is the fact that all of the rounds act in the same band of performance. Interestingly, the one 7.62mm round that received the full evaluation,
the M80 fired from the M14 rifle, performed in the same band of
performance, which would indicate that for M80 ammunition at
least there appears to be no benefit to the larger caliber at close
quarters range.


Your study does emphasize the importance of yaw in bullet performance: Shot placement aside, why is it that some Soldiers report “through and-through” hits while others report no such problems, despite using the same weapons and ammunition? The phenomenon of bullet yaw can explain such differences in performance.

Good commercial ammunition isn't yaw dependent. If your study can't find a performance differences between 7.62 ball, various military 5.56 rounds and commercial off the shelf 5.56 rounds but can find a difference between m855 ball that impacts at a high yaw angle and m855 ball that impacts at a low angle, I'd say it isn't a very good study.
 
R

rickyrick

New member
I give up lol.
.223 won’t kill anything bigger than a squirrel.
just walk out on the balcony here ... put that double-barrelled shotgun and fire two blasts outside the house.'
Click to expand...

We will just follow the former Vice President’s advice.
 
N

Nanuk

New member
There is no bullet that the military can legally field with active duty members that can perform as well as ammo available to the civilian market.
Click to expand...

55 grain FMJ within the fragmentation threshold is pretty devastating. MK262 MOD 1 is pretty devastating. To say that they are not as effective as a 62 grain SP due to being yaw dependent shows a lack of understanding in the wound mechanisms of each.

The problem is finding one that works within a wider variety of variables, in that, the 62/64 grain bonded SP is superior.
 
S

seeker_two

New member
marine6680 said:
Ok... Well...

What loads did they test?

They specifically said commercial 5.56 ammo... Not commercial 223 ammo.

And I still haven't seen any 62gr softpoint 5.56 in the store, let alone ballistic topped vmax in 5.56 spec loadings.
Click to expand...
I'm interested in knowing the tested loads as well.....

Sent from my SM-G892A using Tapatalk
 
M

marine6680

New member
Nanuk...

You are not saying anything that refutes what I said though.


Sure, those rounds can work well under good conditions. But even then, they are not going to out perform a quality commercial load. At best they may be equal... When they work.

But due to their being more particular for optimum performance, a round that is more forgiving in when it performs well, is superior.

It's a choice between works well some of the time, and works well most of the time...

You said it yourself when you say that finding something that works under a wider set of conditions is better.


Maybe I was being a bit simplistic in my previous statement, but I never meant it as that those rounds were not effective in any conditions.


As far as several states... Which seems to be the significant minority... Not thinking 223 is deer hunting worthy...

So what... Since when are a bunch of beurocrats ballistic experts... Also, many of these laws have been on the books for a long time, and ammo development has come a long way.

Many many hunters every year drop deer and large pigs with single shots from a 223.

While deer and pigs are not a perfect human analog, they do tend to be in a similar weight range and chest cavity size of an average adult man...

These hunters prove time and time again that a good bullet, placed in the right area, will drop a 150-200lb critter effectively.
 
Last edited:
T

tobnpr

New member
Compact, semi-auto 12 ga. with 00 buckshot.
People that aren't trained, are more than not likely to miss critical shot placement by a mile under stress.
Shotty is much more likely to end the the threat.

Size of the hole(s), does matter...
 
S

Sharkbite

New member
55 grain FMJ within the fragmentation threshold is pretty devastating.
Click to expand...

Yep. No doubt out of a 20” barrel with a 1/12 twist, that bullet performs nicely. The problem
is NOBODY shoots that long a barrel or that slow a twist anymore.

10.5” 1/7’s are the norm now and that bullet does not yaw and fragment like it should at slower velocities and more spin.

M855 is WORSE yet.

Like has been said a bunch of times....no current Military load will perform as good as a commercial SP/ ballistic tip 223 round in stopping people
 
D

davidsog

New member
Interestingly, the one 7.62mm round that received the full evaluation,
the M80 fired from the M14 rifle, performed in the same band of performance, which would indicate that for M80 ammunition at least there appears to be no benefit to the larger caliber at close quarters range.
Click to expand...

Which is why nobody uses 7.62mm for CQB.....but it does work much better outside the house!

And the study plainly states that:

This study was an extremely detailed, indepth analysis of a specific
engagement (5.56mm at CQB range); we must be careful not to apply the lessons learned out of context. The study did not look at the effectiveness of ammunition at longer ranges, where differences in projectile mass, velocity, and composition may have greater effect. The target set for this analysis was an unarmored, frontal standing target; against targets in body armor, or crouching/prone targets, the results may be different. Of course, most targets on the modern battlefield can be expected to be engaged in some form of complex posture (moving, crouching, or behind cover) and future analysis will have to look at such targets, too. The study evaluated readily available commercial ammunition; this does not rule out the possibility that ammunition could be designed to perform significantly better in a CQB environment. Human damage models need further refinement to move beyond gelatin and more closely replicate the complex human anatomy.
While these caveats should not detract from the importance of the study’s findings, they should be considered as a starting point for continued analysis.
Click to expand...



I'd say it isn't a very good study.
Click to expand...

Your opinion and you are entitled to it!

It does not change the fact they are the premier source for small arms lethality studies and you are not. :)
 
S

stonewall50

New member
tobnpr said:
Compact, semi-auto 12 ga. with 00 buckshot.

People that aren't trained, are more than not likely to miss critical shot placement by a mile under stress.

Shotty is much more likely to end the the threat.



Size of the hole(s), does matter...
Click to expand...



I don’t know if I agree. Not really. The size of the pattern in a shotgun load at short range? Really not much bigger than a rifle.

9c1ae99603f5d0969987f1d9a851a788.jpg


I would actually argue that a semi auto rifle like the AR is probably a lot easier to use than a shotgun. Especially when you factor in recoil management and point of aim consistency. I think lower recoil rifles are easier to learn how to use for newbies. I’d be interested to see how someone performs with a 20 gauge vs an AR Vs a 12. Just as an experiment.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
Last edited:
2

2damnold4this

New member
Which is why nobody uses 7.62mm for CQB.....but it does work much better outside the house!
Click to expand...

If 7.62x51 isn't any better than 5.56 and no 5.56 is better than any other 5.56, why are you complaining about using 5.56 M855? The study says in its closing paragraph that you are getting the best in weapons and ammunition: Soldiers and leaders everywhere should take heart from the fact that despite all the myth and superstition surrounding their rifles and ammunition, they are still being provided the best performing weapons and ammunition available while the armaments community works to develop something even better.

If it only takes one or two rounds on average from a 5.56 fired by an American LEO to be effective and it takes eight for one of your guys to get an effective stop, what explains the difference? Your study says it can't be the ammo and suggest shot placement and training as possible differences. It could be that LEOs are better trained in CQB and get better shot placement or it could be the difference is elsewhere.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top