Why the 5.56 rifle for home defense?
- Thread starter seeker_two
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Bartholomew Roberts
Moderator
5.56, even out of a pistol barrel, has more energy to work with and is capable of more effective terminal ballistics than the rounds you mention, even when they are fired out of a carbine. That doesn’t necessarily make it a better choice for any specific individual; but it is certainly a factor to consider.
I’ve got an interesting powerpoint slide in the topic of the relative terminal effects of pistol caliber carbines vs. shotguns vs. intermediate caliber rifles bs. real rifles from ARDEC’s 2017 NDIA presentation. I’ll try to post something up on it later.
johnwilliamson062
Moderator
I have shot at clubs where half the people are using the same gun they use for deer. Lots in the less elitist clay games also. Five stand for instance.
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marine6680
New member
Model12
I have seen tests of my ammo done from shorter barrels, and at increased distances from a 16in barrel.
It still performs well. It actually gains a bit of penetration.
And remember AR pistols with an arm brace... Are "pistols"...
I checked up on many things before I decided to go this route. And more because I can than really need. I can maneuver my 16in carbine pretty well though my house.
I have seen tests of my ammo done from shorter barrels, and at increased distances from a 16in barrel.
It still performs well. It actually gains a bit of penetration.
And remember AR pistols with an arm brace... Are "pistols"...
I checked up on many things before I decided to go this route. And more because I can than really need. I can maneuver my 16in carbine pretty well though my house.
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2damnold4this
New member
I would be interested in seeing that, if you get the chance to post it.
Can you back that up with facts?
That statement I made about LE/SWAT not shooting enough human beings to be statistically relevant came from the folks who are looking for the next wonder bullet in 5.56mm for Tier 1 SOCOM.
Maybe they are wrong and can be pointed in the right direction! Sure save a lot of money and time looking for a replacement!!
Remington74
New member
So a 12 gauge doesn't expand much at HD ranges, how much does a 5.56 expand at that distance? Given a solid hit at HD ranges either one should pretty much end the game right there. A miss at HD ranges I would call them about equal. I lean towards the 12 gauge because that is what I have, besides a 38 special and a 380. By the way, I haven't short-stroked that pump in 50 years so that is low on my list of concerns, YMMV
Whenever did anyone ask about special forces?
I mean we aren’t shooting across a valley. We are talking about the living room.
Everyone needs to understand that there’s a good chance that a bad guy won’t go down with the first shot, no matter what you use. A person can very easily be taken down in one shot, but you can’t count on it. The best bet it to use something that you can shoot again accurately.
Not everyone has the option to put a rifle or shotgun in every room, especially if there’s kids around.
I guess .223 should come with warnings “This Product is NOT Suitable for Defensive Use. This ammunition will not stop aggressors. Should you attemp to use this ammunition in a defensive manner, the perpetrator will magically remain unharmed while the projectile will reek havoc on the neighborhood. The producer of this timid .223 ammunition, recommends using whatever mystery ammunition “TopTier Operators” have discovered in the generous governmental deep pockets. They keep it next to the unicorn dust.
This is the simplest question with the simplest answer but it always gets blown out of proportion.
Q: Can you use .223/5.56 ammunition for defense?
A: yes, use expanding ammunition not military ammunition.
See, it’s not that hard.
I mean we aren’t shooting across a valley. We are talking about the living room.
Everyone needs to understand that there’s a good chance that a bad guy won’t go down with the first shot, no matter what you use. A person can very easily be taken down in one shot, but you can’t count on it. The best bet it to use something that you can shoot again accurately.
Not everyone has the option to put a rifle or shotgun in every room, especially if there’s kids around.
I guess .223 should come with warnings “This Product is NOT Suitable for Defensive Use. This ammunition will not stop aggressors. Should you attemp to use this ammunition in a defensive manner, the perpetrator will magically remain unharmed while the projectile will reek havoc on the neighborhood. The producer of this timid .223 ammunition, recommends using whatever mystery ammunition “TopTier Operators” have discovered in the generous governmental deep pockets. They keep it next to the unicorn dust.
This is the simplest question with the simplest answer but it always gets blown out of proportion.
Q: Can you use .223/5.56 ammunition for defense?
A: yes, use expanding ammunition not military ammunition.
See, it’s not that hard.
marine6680
New member
Statistical relevance is just a numbers game.
Police shoot several thousand people every year. If you are conservative, you can go with a few hundred are shot with a 5.56 rifle.
Now you may be able to dig up specific numbers, nut I have niether the time nor the inclination to do so.
But a few hundred people over the course of several years is plenty data for relevance.
Sheesh, I still haven't seen proper counter data. Claiming someone isn't producing enough evidence for their position, while likewise not providing relevant data and evidence yourself... There is a word for that.
Combat is not home defense, is not police use...
There is no bullet that the military can legally field with active duty members that can perform as well as ammo available to the civilian market.
The military is constrained, so designs have to meet certain criteria, and be designed to work in a variety of situations and ranges...
Police and civilians have only one scenario they really need to consider... Terminal performance on unarmored targets inside 50yds. Police may have other scenarios that crop up, but that is the primary focus most of the time.
Apple and orange comparisons are invalid.
Military combat experience means Jack in civilian HD ammo selection.
Police shoot several thousand people every year. If you are conservative, you can go with a few hundred are shot with a 5.56 rifle.
Now you may be able to dig up specific numbers, nut I have niether the time nor the inclination to do so.
But a few hundred people over the course of several years is plenty data for relevance.
Sheesh, I still haven't seen proper counter data. Claiming someone isn't producing enough evidence for their position, while likewise not providing relevant data and evidence yourself... There is a word for that.
Combat is not home defense, is not police use...
There is no bullet that the military can legally field with active duty members that can perform as well as ammo available to the civilian market.
The military is constrained, so designs have to meet certain criteria, and be designed to work in a variety of situations and ranges...
Police and civilians have only one scenario they really need to consider... Terminal performance on unarmored targets inside 50yds. Police may have other scenarios that crop up, but that is the primary focus most of the time.
Apple and orange comparisons are invalid.
Military combat experience means Jack in civilian HD ammo selection.
Model12Win
Moderator
I've seen enough body cam footage of ARs in police hands to not doubt them in the slightest.
Same for shotguns as well. But I recall one video where an officer emptied his shotgun (4 round 870 police) at a barricaded suspect and when empty he threw the shotgun on the ground, reduced to a paperweight. An AR would have had 26 more shots to go.
marine6680
New member
Plenty of body can footage that shows the effectiveness of proper round selection.
Brilliant!
Home Defense certainly involves combat unless you are just going to ask nicely for them to leave and stop robbing/murdering your family!!
Yes, it was very tempting to take a much lower road with these statements, LOL!!!
Here is some of the results from the Small Arms Conference....
You simply cannot fit all of DoD acquisitions into one mold or generalization. You can say the Tier 1 units are the most focused on the needs of the warfighter and nothing else. As Col. Beckwith once said in reply to Army Bean counters discussing the budget of a new unit, "This isn't General Mills and we are not making Corn Flakes."
The lethality studies are on-going and so far no "wonder bullet" has surfaced that can overcome the physics of a varmint round that is illegal in many states to be used for Deer Hunting being asked to produce consistent one round incapacitation of a human being.
Bartholomew Roberts
Moderator
You aren’t going to get consistent one round incapacitation on a human being from anything remotely man portable. I’ve seen a shoat run after being shot with a .50 BMG at less than 200yds.
Expecting that level of performance is unrealistic.
Also, the yellow highlighted part is horsehockey. COTS 5.56mm ammo isn’t yaw dependent. M855 is. Not only is that a significant difference, , the same PM-MAS presenter (Lt. Col. Woods) even agrees that lack of yaw dependency is a benefit of M855A1 over M855 in the presentation be gives the year after that one.
In any case, the takeaway message should be the “shot placement matters” message.
How many states is 5.56 illegal for deer hunting in?
Expecting that level of performance is unrealistic.
Also, the yellow highlighted part is horsehockey. COTS 5.56mm ammo isn’t yaw dependent. M855 is. Not only is that a significant difference, , the same PM-MAS presenter (Lt. Col. Woods) even agrees that lack of yaw dependency is a benefit of M855A1 over M855 in the presentation be gives the year after that one.
In any case, the takeaway message should be the “shot placement matters” message.
How many states is 5.56 illegal for deer hunting in?
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marine6680
New member
"Commercially available 5.56 rounds"
Those are just surplus 5.56 or made using the same components.
I have never personally seen a soft point 5.56, or a vmax loaded into a 5.56...
Got any data showing exactly what was used in the testing?
I have a very hard time believing 855 (not 855A1) is as lethal as a 223 62gr softpoint, at all practical ranges. (0-300yds)
In the end, military personnel will always complain about their gear. And they tend to look at the enemies gear with awe or admiration. Maybe not all gear, but certainly the rifles and ammo... Maybe systems like the RPG... As they see them be effective.
It's human nature to focus mostly on the negative... Their bullets kill our guys. (forgetting when they don't) Our bullets don't kill them. (Ignoring when they do)
If we used 7.62x39, our guys would complain that it suck major at 300yds and beyond, due to poor ballistics... Or they would come up with some other complaint.
7.62x39 isn't magic bullet, niether is 308/7.62... heck or any others available now.
All have strengths and weaknesses... Compromises and trade offs.
It's the nature of small arms ammo design.
Those are just surplus 5.56 or made using the same components.
I have never personally seen a soft point 5.56, or a vmax loaded into a 5.56...
Got any data showing exactly what was used in the testing?
I have a very hard time believing 855 (not 855A1) is as lethal as a 223 62gr softpoint, at all practical ranges. (0-300yds)
In the end, military personnel will always complain about their gear. And they tend to look at the enemies gear with awe or admiration. Maybe not all gear, but certainly the rifles and ammo... Maybe systems like the RPG... As they see them be effective.
It's human nature to focus mostly on the negative... Their bullets kill our guys. (forgetting when they don't) Our bullets don't kill them. (Ignoring when they do)
If we used 7.62x39, our guys would complain that it suck major at 300yds and beyond, due to poor ballistics... Or they would come up with some other complaint.
7.62x39 isn't magic bullet, niether is 308/7.62... heck or any others available now.
All have strengths and weaknesses... Compromises and trade offs.
It's the nature of small arms ammo design.
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Flamethrower?
marine6680
New member
Maybe... But they have horrible max effective range.
And the collateral damage to your home would be horrendous.
And the collateral damage to your home would be horrendous.
Bartholomew Roberts
Moderator
People run OK when they get set on fire. Thermobaric maybe.
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