juliet charley
New member
I will try again--because they don't need to load +P pressures for optimum performance.
Why no +P for 147 gr 9mm?
- Thread starter Larry C.
- Start date
"It could be that the case volume is too small for pressures in that range, but that's just an idea, not an explanation."
That's not an explanation either.
Depends on the powder. Dump in about 10 gr of Bullseye and set a 147 over it. That will give you +P+.
DO NOT TRY THIS THO. It's just an example.
That's not an explanation either.
Depends on the powder. Dump in about 10 gr of Bullseye and set a 147 over it. That will give you +P+.
DO NOT TRY THIS THO. It's just an example.
juliet charley
New member
It is very much an answer--and a very practical and realistic answer.
The 147-grain round has from the beginning been designed as a LE round to meet the FBI performance standards. It meets those standard very well (as good or better than any other .36 calibre round including the 357 SIG) without resorting to +P pressures. Evidently, Winchester, Remington, Speer and Federal--the big players in the LE market--have never felt a "market" need to load particular weight to +P pressures.
I think rather than a case of "+P ammo sells," it is a case of effective ammo sells. Now, maybe, if like many of the boutiques, the target market was wannabes, mall ninjas and armchair commandos, they might have felt a market driven need to up the chamber pressure to +P levels.
The 147-grain round has from the beginning been designed as a LE round to meet the FBI performance standards. It meets those standard very well (as good or better than any other .36 calibre round including the 357 SIG) without resorting to +P pressures. Evidently, Winchester, Remington, Speer and Federal--the big players in the LE market--have never felt a "market" need to load particular weight to +P pressures.
I think rather than a case of "+P ammo sells," it is a case of effective ammo sells. Now, maybe, if like many of the boutiques, the target market was wannabes, mall ninjas and armchair commandos, they might have felt a market driven need to up the chamber pressure to +P levels.
It quite certainly is an explanation. Case volume, burn rates and pressure curves are alot more complex than "dump some bullseye in". Add to that the increased surface area the deeper seated 147 gr. bullet has and it maybe a potential bomb.
Cartridge loading does not obey linear rules. An UNDER load can blow up a gun, in certain circumstances. If you don't understand why that is, don't instruct others on how metallic cartridges work.
Cartridge loading does not obey linear rules. An UNDER load can blow up a gun, in certain circumstances. If you don't understand why that is, don't instruct others on how metallic cartridges work.
juliet charley
New member
You beat me to it (except Buffalo Bore bills their's as +P+ rather +P). I was just going to point out to Handy that case volume is evidently not an issue because one company is loading it +P levels and another to +P+ levels--a prime example of market-driven rather than performance-driven load development.
juliet charley
New member
I know, but nonetheless, that's how Buffalo Bore bills their 147-grain load.
"It quite certainly is an explanation. Case volume, burn rates and pressure curves are alot more complex than "dump some bullseye in". Add to that the increased surface area the deeper seated 147 gr. bullet has and it maybe a potential bomb.
Cartridge loading does not obey linear rules. An UNDER load can blow up a gun, in certain circumstances. If you don't understand why that is, don't instruct others on how metallic cartridges work."
My point is and was that pressure can be influenced a great deal by the type of powder used be it a small case or large case.
BTW, I have a pretty good understanding of reloading. Been doing it for over 45 yrs now and haven't had any problems. Don't reload as much as I use to when I was running 20K+ rds of .38 a yr but I still stuff a few now and again for matches and hunting.
Cartridge loading does not obey linear rules. An UNDER load can blow up a gun, in certain circumstances. If you don't understand why that is, don't instruct others on how metallic cartridges work."
My point is and was that pressure can be influenced a great deal by the type of powder used be it a small case or large case.
BTW, I have a pretty good understanding of reloading. Been doing it for over 45 yrs now and haven't had any problems. Don't reload as much as I use to when I was running 20K+ rds of .38 a yr but I still stuff a few now and again for matches and hunting.
Zekewolf,
My information comes directly from rangemasters and police officers that I deal with daily. People who shoot for a living and have many years experience. I personally have had a Glock 19 do what seasoned firearms users call Glock KB. It blew apart in my hand in front of witnesses while at the range after several varieties of Hornady XTP, Remington Golden Saber, and Winchester Supreme SXT. All 147 grain. The reason according to Glock is the lack of "case head support" in their standard barrel configuration. The stock Glock 19 barrel leaves 0.306-inch of the case unsupported over the feed ramp. This coupled with the powder charge used in 147gr. ammo can be detrimental to compact polymer framed guns and ones health.
What is a kB!?
Coined by firearms journalist Dean Speir, kB! is shorthand for "kaBOOM!," which is the written representation of what happens when one has a catastrophic explosive event in one's Glock.
What causes a kB!?
Catastrophic failures may be caused by a variety of problems, but in general a kB! is as a result of a case failure. The case failure occurs when pressure inside the cartridge increases to the point that it cannot be contained by the case and the material of the case fails, allowing hot gases to escape from the ruptured case web at damagingly high velocities. The resulting uncontained forces can blow the magazine out of the gun, destroy the locking block, cause the tip of the trigger to be snipped off, ruin the trigger bar, rupture the barrel, peel the forward edge of the slide at the ejection port up, and do other nasty things. In general, Glocks tend to contain case failures fairly well, but under some circumstances they can cause injury as well as damage to one's gun. At least one Federal LEO has been injured in a kB! One last cause of "blowups:" The simple chambering and rechambering of a cartridge does push the bullet back into its case. Hirtenberg Ammunition Company of Austria (at the request of GLOCK, Inc.) determined that, with a .40 caliber cartridge, pushing the bullet back into the case 1/10 of an inch doubled the chamber pressure. This is higher than a proof load. This "push back" can occur with but one chambering of any caliber since it is dependent on how well the case was crimped or sealed to the bullet. How many of us regularly chamber and rechamber the first two rounds of our carry loads? (Also, this chambering and ejecting chews up the case rim, which can cause a malfunction. If you are limited to how much ammo you are issued, after cycling the first two rounds a few times, strip the magazine and load these two rounds first so they are the last up in the stick.)
There are reports from across America where Kahr, Glock, Sig, and others have experienced catastrophic failures with 9mm, .40S&W, .357Sig, and above all .45acp in polymer framed service pistols.
Handy,
perhaps you missed this...
"The weapon and/or bullet configuration cannot generate or tolerate the chamber pressures necessary to bring a heavy sub-sonic bullet back up to +P power. Perhaps "+P power" was a poor choice of phrase. However...
having spent my entire adult life in and around the firearms business, carrying for thirty years, and sponsoring an IPSC team in Indiana, I tend to take the words of seasoned professionals from the Secret Service all the way down the ladder to my local Sheriff's department's resident Rambo's who have earned their livelyhood behind the gun and badge for as long as thirty years. Your mileage may vary.
The original poster asked a question. I answered the question with all the info available from professionals in the field.
On a closing note, Hirtenberg, Austria recommended against hot heavy loads in 9mm lite frame handguns fifteen or more years ago. Detailed discussion on such matters can be found HERE
My information comes directly from rangemasters and police officers that I deal with daily. People who shoot for a living and have many years experience. I personally have had a Glock 19 do what seasoned firearms users call Glock KB. It blew apart in my hand in front of witnesses while at the range after several varieties of Hornady XTP, Remington Golden Saber, and Winchester Supreme SXT. All 147 grain. The reason according to Glock is the lack of "case head support" in their standard barrel configuration. The stock Glock 19 barrel leaves 0.306-inch of the case unsupported over the feed ramp. This coupled with the powder charge used in 147gr. ammo can be detrimental to compact polymer framed guns and ones health.
What is a kB!?
Coined by firearms journalist Dean Speir, kB! is shorthand for "kaBOOM!," which is the written representation of what happens when one has a catastrophic explosive event in one's Glock.
What causes a kB!?
Catastrophic failures may be caused by a variety of problems, but in general a kB! is as a result of a case failure. The case failure occurs when pressure inside the cartridge increases to the point that it cannot be contained by the case and the material of the case fails, allowing hot gases to escape from the ruptured case web at damagingly high velocities. The resulting uncontained forces can blow the magazine out of the gun, destroy the locking block, cause the tip of the trigger to be snipped off, ruin the trigger bar, rupture the barrel, peel the forward edge of the slide at the ejection port up, and do other nasty things. In general, Glocks tend to contain case failures fairly well, but under some circumstances they can cause injury as well as damage to one's gun. At least one Federal LEO has been injured in a kB! One last cause of "blowups:" The simple chambering and rechambering of a cartridge does push the bullet back into its case. Hirtenberg Ammunition Company of Austria (at the request of GLOCK, Inc.) determined that, with a .40 caliber cartridge, pushing the bullet back into the case 1/10 of an inch doubled the chamber pressure. This is higher than a proof load. This "push back" can occur with but one chambering of any caliber since it is dependent on how well the case was crimped or sealed to the bullet. How many of us regularly chamber and rechamber the first two rounds of our carry loads? (Also, this chambering and ejecting chews up the case rim, which can cause a malfunction. If you are limited to how much ammo you are issued, after cycling the first two rounds a few times, strip the magazine and load these two rounds first so they are the last up in the stick.)
There are reports from across America where Kahr, Glock, Sig, and others have experienced catastrophic failures with 9mm, .40S&W, .357Sig, and above all .45acp in polymer framed service pistols.
Handy,
perhaps you missed this...
"The weapon and/or bullet configuration cannot generate or tolerate the chamber pressures necessary to bring a heavy sub-sonic bullet back up to +P power. Perhaps "+P power" was a poor choice of phrase. However...
having spent my entire adult life in and around the firearms business, carrying for thirty years, and sponsoring an IPSC team in Indiana, I tend to take the words of seasoned professionals from the Secret Service all the way down the ladder to my local Sheriff's department's resident Rambo's who have earned their livelyhood behind the gun and badge for as long as thirty years. Your mileage may vary.
The original poster asked a question. I answered the question with all the info available from professionals in the field.
On a closing note, Hirtenberg, Austria recommended against hot heavy loads in 9mm lite frame handguns fifteen or more years ago. Detailed discussion on such matters can be found HERE
Gabby Hayes
New member
Everyone else is getting their war stories and opinions in, so I may as well too. A couple years back one of the local ranges had a rep from Remington come out for some sort of weekend festivity. In the course of the afternoon, the question of 147gr and +P came up. His claim was that the 147gr bullet in 9mm is a tad longer than the 115/124gr varieties, which sounds reasonable. The 9x19mm case is stubby enough that there isn't a whole lot of spare room to add additional powder, especially with the 147gr bullet, before the overall cartridge length begins to exceed standards. He said it could be done by tinkering with the types of powder used, but that most felt it wasn't worth the effort in a round that already seems to work well.
Thanks
Howdy,
To everyone: Thanks for addressing my question. I'm carrying WWB JHP 147 gr 9mm in my Beretta 92FS now for lawful concealed carry. I feel confidant that It'll achieve 13 inches of penetration. God forbid I should ever need to USE my Baretta for anything but knocking over steel plates!
Thanks again everyone.
Larry C.
Howdy,
To everyone: Thanks for addressing my question. I'm carrying WWB JHP 147 gr 9mm in my Beretta 92FS now for lawful concealed carry. I feel confidant that It'll achieve 13 inches of penetration. God forbid I should ever need to USE my Baretta for anything but knocking over steel plates!
Thanks again everyone.
Larry C.
Well, I guess that makes them experts. :barf: I'll tell you that none of my firearms instructors have ever heard of the 357 SIG round. They also think the .40 S&W and .45 ACP are the best "police" rounds in the world and 9mm is not powerful enough to stop a criminal. I have personally seen one of my fellow "seasoned" officers load a 12 ga. round backward in his 870 and jam it up so badly that the armorer needed to fix it. I've heard my fellow officers bitch up a storm because those "damn Berettas" can't shoot accurately (but it couldn't be shooter error...no way). One of our captains with 14 years experience shot himself in the leg with a Glock 27 during qualifications, not to mention that one of the other captains pushed the emergency button on his radio because he wanted to "see what it does."
Basically, being a LEO and/or a range officer/firearms instructor in no way, shape, or form qualifies them to be the final word on firearms or ammo.
My Glock 19 must be abnormal. I can only manage to get .053" of unsupported case at the 6 o'clock position using my handy dandy dial caliper's depth gauge. I guess I could pull out my depth micrometer, but that's splitting hairs. In comparison, my Beretta 92FS, which is supposed to be "fully supported" measures in at .060" at 6 o'clock.
I love this line!!!
Give up. The argument is flawed big time.
grendelbane
New member
There is one thing that no one seems to have mentioned. The reason for a higher pressure load is to produce higher velocity. Push an 147 grain bullet at a higher velocity, and the slide velocity will increase also. This can lead to functioning problems, as well as shortening the life of the pistol.
Not saying that an 147 grain +p load could not be made that would be accurate, effective and reliable. Just saying it is a bit more difficult to do than with the lighter bullet weights.
Disregarding the effect of the powder charge, a +p load that drives a 115 grain bullet at 1300 fps, (pretty warm!), produces a slide velocity that would be the same as that produced by an 147 grain bullet at a 1017 fps.
That is not much of a velocity increase over standard pressure 147 grainers. So there is less demand for a +p 147 grain load.
I like this bullet weight in .38 Super and 357 SIG. Unfortunately, most of the bullets are constructed for lower velocities.
Not saying that an 147 grain +p load could not be made that would be accurate, effective and reliable. Just saying it is a bit more difficult to do than with the lighter bullet weights.
Disregarding the effect of the powder charge, a +p load that drives a 115 grain bullet at 1300 fps, (pretty warm!), produces a slide velocity that would be the same as that produced by an 147 grain bullet at a 1017 fps.
That is not much of a velocity increase over standard pressure 147 grainers. So there is less demand for a +p 147 grain load.
I like this bullet weight in .38 Super and 357 SIG. Unfortunately, most of the bullets are constructed for lower velocities.
I did not come here to argue with you gentlemen. You are entitled to believe as you choose. And it's really not worth all the effort. Really.
I get my information from a fifteen year Glock Armorer, S.W.A.T team commanders and "Po-Po" instructors. Also the largest Glock distributer in North America, and people who know the firearms industry not the internet rumor mill. Folks who sold 100,000 Glocks to the new Iraqi government along with the same number of D.P.M.S AR's and all the ammo for em'. I suppose they all could be wrong. I'll take their word any day. They still say "+P" AND the 147 grainers are hard as h**l on polymer guns, especially the lil' fellers they sell to civies.
But like I said I didn't come here to argue a moot point. Buy what you like believe what you will. Do a google on "Glocks blowing up".
I get my information from a fifteen year Glock Armorer, S.W.A.T team commanders and "Po-Po" instructors. Also the largest Glock distributer in North America, and people who know the firearms industry not the internet rumor mill. Folks who sold 100,000 Glocks to the new Iraqi government along with the same number of D.P.M.S AR's and all the ammo for em'. I suppose they all could be wrong. I'll take their word any day. They still say "+P" AND the 147 grainers are hard as h**l on polymer guns, especially the lil' fellers they sell to civies.
But like I said I didn't come here to argue a moot point. Buy what you like believe what you will. Do a google on "Glocks blowing up".
What Juliet Charlie said.
I would only add that I do favor the lighter +P loads; like the 127 Ranger T. This and the very hot hardball loads like Fiocchi's 123 grain load for their perhaps slightly better performance against harder materials in the form of tactical barriers.
But with the heaviest bullet weights in any cartridge bumping up pressure produces a smaller increase in actual velocity. And in the case of the better 147 grain loads they are already a good balance of controllability, low "wear and tear", and effectiveness.
I would only add that I do favor the lighter +P loads; like the 127 Ranger T. This and the very hot hardball loads like Fiocchi's 123 grain load for their perhaps slightly better performance against harder materials in the form of tactical barriers.
But with the heaviest bullet weights in any cartridge bumping up pressure produces a smaller increase in actual velocity. And in the case of the better 147 grain loads they are already a good balance of controllability, low "wear and tear", and effectiveness.