Why no +P for 147 gr 9mm?

[Larry C.]

Howdy,

I'm a "Revolver" guy, but enjoying my two new Beretta 92FS pistols! Since 9mm practice ammo is SO cheap, I couldn't fight a tidal wave
I've seen and fired 115 and 124 gr. in +P loads, why is there no +P for the 147 gr loads?

Larry C.

 

[BerettaCougar]

http://gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=35568032

Not +p, as you requested...but my brother loads these in his defense pistol. He has a 92fs (I miss mine soooo much) and a 96.. he has yet to run into a problem with either one.

BTW 147gr defense loads are $$$$$$
EXPENSIVE!!!

 

[mtnbkr]

BTW 147gr defense loads are $$$$$$

At my local shop, they're no more expensive than the other 9mm defensive loads. Per 50 rounds, Winchester RA9T (147gr) is just over half the price of Speer GoldDot 124+P.

Chris

 

[BerettaCougar]

at least double the price here.

20rds of +p remington = 20 dolars

20rds of hydrashocks 124gr = 10 dollars

 

[1st0ne]

Primarily the 147gr. 9mm projectile reduces muzzle velocity to below sub-sonic. The weapon and/or bullet configuration cannot generate or tolerate the chamber pressures necessary to bring a heavy sub-sonic bullet back up to +P power.

There are LE only 147gr. rounds that surpass sub-sonic and are fairly hot but NOT +P. These rounds are not recommended for polymer or alloy framed guns.

Were such ammo available to the general public some dipstick would be loading up his Lorcin, Phoenix, or Kel-Tek, and blowing his d**n fool head off. Most law enforcement finds the 147gr. stuff insufficient.

 

[Zekewolf]

1stOne: How about a link to the source of your info about the "LE Only" 147 gr. ammo, particularly how it shouldn't be used in polymer-framed pistols? Yep, I'm dragging out the B.S. meter on this one!

 

[roger-ruger]

no +p for 147gr? bcoz creating a +p ammo for 147 would most likely defeat its purpose. but for me i used the 158grainers JHP on my RUGER P89 as self-defense ammo and no problems whatsoever. recoil and cycling is just as great as the standard 115 and 124grainers.

i wonder how correct is (1st one) that polymer and alloy framed is not suitable for 147gr. but i do understand that extensive use with +p and +p+ increases the wear of any pistol whether it be a polymer, alloy or steel.

 

[Handy]

1stone,

What are you talking about???? +P isn't a power level - it is an operating pressure. Either the load is at that pressure or it isn't.


The polymer frame thing is nonsense, as well.

 

[juliet charley]

This whole infatuation with +P is silly. The standard 147-grain rounds (Ranger T, Gold Dot, Golden Sabre) are stellar performers at their current levels. There is absolutely no reason to suspect or suggest increasing the chamber pressure would enhance performance (but it could very likely cause it to deteriorate).

 

[CarbineCaleb]

They're pretty pricy, but Buffalo Bore makes a 9mm +P+ Gold Dot cartridge - it pushes a 147gr bullet at 1175fps for 451 ft-lb.

By the way - you bought two at once? Do you shoot two fisted?

 

[BerettaCougar]

I agree, this crap floating around that a +p or +p+ is soooo much better than a regular 124gr HP is just funny.

At the local ranges and shops I hear the misguided talking about their +p+ and their "performance" like if they know how the bullets react when fired at someone and that their shots because they use +p+ and I use standard 124gr hydras that they have more of a chance of winning a gun fight. ITS STUPID!

The +p+ and +p crap is for marketing... making believe that they will become super protected when using the +p's

 

[roger-ruger]

Practice man. what good is a +p/+p+ and not be able to hit your target. You have decided with the 9mm ammo. With its low recoil and easy shootability you won't need a +p/+p+, standard 9mm ammo are easy to be good at.

Be safe.

 

[nemesis]

At the local ranges and shops I hear the misguided talking about their +p+ and their "performance" like if they know how the bullets react when fired at someone and that their shots because they use +p+ and I use standard 124gr hydras that they have more of a chance of winning a gun fight. ITS STUPID!

I carry a gun, full time, in the unlikely event that I may need to defend myself or another person. I use Remington Golden Saber 185 grain +P's in my Springfield Ultra Compact and Winchester Ranger LE 115 grain +P+ or Speer Gold Dot 124 grain +P's in my Sig 225.

I may be required to fire through auto sheet metal or glass and I need to ensure that the projectile can achieve that critical penetration and still retain enough velocity and energy to fully expand the bullet and cause extreme wounding. Many people rely on a minor caliber or a standard pressure cartridge for their personal defense but I see no reason to limit my ability to stop an aggressor when I can choose to employ a more powerful cartridge.

I don't go looking for trouble, I don't troll through dangerous areas that I can avoid but I do prepare for the unpredictable and I want the best defense I can have.

Didn't Forrest Gump quote his mother as saying "stupid is as stupid does"?

 

[juliet charley]

You miss the point! Just because it is designated +P or +P+ does NOT make it "best defense" you can have. There is lot more to the effectiveness equation than chamber pressure. In particular (and relevant to this thread), that is absolutely NOTHING to support or suggest a 147-grain JHP loaded to +P or +P+ pressure will be more effective than the current loads at standard chamber pressures. Extra chamber pressure does not automatically translate to a more effective round.

 

[mtnbkr]

Yup. Given the performance of good 147gr loads compared to 124g+P, I imagine the bullet construction is different in order to work properly at lower velocities. An increase in velocity with that same bullet might make performance worse.

Chris

 

[Larry C.]

I've been misunderstood, apparantly.

Howdy,

Posters like Juliet Charley and BerettaCougar among others have misunderstood my original question, I'm afraid. I asked if anyone knew WHY 147 gr 9mm wasn't loaded to +P pressures. I didn't imply or state that I felt 147 gr +P was superior.
I'm not trying to come across as rude, I DO appreciate all informed responses, it just looked like the thread was off track.

Respectfully,
Larry C.

 

[mtnbkr]

I don't really know why. According to the load data I've seen, 147gr pressures are within 2k (above and below) of 124gr NON +P pressures. IIRC, however, +P is specifically 10% over SAAMI spec. A +P 147gr (10% more pressure) load might not gain enough velocity due to the heavier bullet to be worth the effort.

Chris

 

[ninemm]

This Was Recently Posted On The Board

Winchester's latest Ranger LE Catalog shows the following data on 9mm Ranger T's in 147-gr. and 127-gr. +P+ (page 19):

Quote:

Gelatin
147-gr. = 13.9 / .65
127-gr. = 12.3 / .64

4-Ply Denim
147-gr. = 14.5 / .66
127-gr. = 12.5 / .68

Heavy Cloth
147-gr. = 14.0 / .66
127-gr. = 12.2 / .68

Wallboard
147-gr. = 15.0 / .67
127-gr. = 12.1 / .66

Plywood
147-gr. = 14.8 / .62
127-gr. = 12.0 / .68

Auto Glass
147-gr = 10.8 / .52
127-gr. = 9.4 / .48

Unquote

Call (800) 356-2666 and ask for extention 2897 or 3345 for more similar data with similar outcomes. Both rounds are outstanding, but the +P+ gets people's attention more so than the standard 147-grainer.

Just because a round is a little louder and recoils more, doesn't make it more effective in stopping the BG.

 

[Stephen A. Camp]

Hello. Given today's bullets (bonded in some cases), might it be that not much except greater penetration is obtained? With concerns expressed by some on "over penetration" issues and with the 147's meeting the FBI's protocols for adequate penetration, maybe the ammunition makers simply see no need. Just a guess.

Best.

 

[WESHOOT2]

+p+

Means no limit; does not mean over SAAMI standard. Can be, doesn't hafta be.

Me? I worry about reliable function and accuracy.

Frankly, hotter ammo is harder to get good hits with (for most, and one needs to expend considerable amounts of ammo to get good).