Why laser sights?

[DENALI]

Well you're quite a talent Tamara. I'm not an expert, but I'm not stupid either!
Most of you seem to think you're gonna rambo your way through with your trusty lasermatic. I worked as a Mental health counselor on a locked unit in the Twin Cities for 11 years, I'm fairly certain most of you would be slack jaw shocked at how fast a motivated human can move at you from 25 yards away. Many if not most would be blessed by God to be even able to draw and fire in that time span....

 

[Tamara]

DENALI,

Low and left by a right-handed shooter is caused by "flinch" or jerking the trigger, exacerbated by a heavy trigger on a light gun such as a J-frame.

Incidentally, I don't have a lasermatic, but I do have CTC grips on my 432PD. I'm comfortable with them, and I train to maintain that comfort level. I'm sure you do likewise with your gear, no?

And no, I wouldn't be shocked at all at how fast a motivated human could come at me, and would probably be no more slack-jawed than usual.

 

[DENALI]

I'm just stating what any sales rep from CT wouldn't. If you have and enjoy one thats great. If you're an armed pro, keep up that training level as it comforts those of us who aren't. Just remember, as the other gentleman has pointed out, when the SHTF most if not all will revert to the level of their training. And for most that means forgetting your training! Your vision will narrow, you'll become clumsy, particularly in your extremities, you may feel a strong sense of nausea, and you'll start to shake uncontrollably.
It's here, when you're reacting to a violent attack at very close quarters, perhaps you've been shot or stabbed, trust me, most of you good people won't be thinking about your gunsights, electronic or otherwise....

 

[Tamara]

I'm no "armed pro", I'm just some chick. Jim Cirillo spoke highly of CTC's product, though, and he had formulated a theory or two about fighting with guns.

Anyway, it's good to see that someone is reading those "It happened to me!" stories in Combat Handguns magazine.

Thank you for sharing that, DENALI. Nobody here has ever heard of "adrenaline dump" or the fight-or-flight response before.

 

[jaysouth]

Anybody in this thread got a cat? Sitting in my favorite chair in front of the TV, I get out my J frame with the CTC red dot.

I shine it on the floor until I get the cat's attention. She will chase the red dot until she is about exhausted. I can make her jump four feet up a wall.

Wear out the cat and never get out of your chair.

Several years ago, two gentlemen broke into a shed behind my business about 10:00 one night. Returning from the mailbox, I saw them start removing tools and merchandise from the shed. Picking a spot about 50 yards away with some concealment, I illuminated the back windshield of their car with the CTC dot. This DID get their attention. I asked them in a very polite conversational tone to replace my property in the shed. I begged them to please leave a twenty dollar bill to repair the damage. I thanked them and they left as quickly as they came.

I thought of asking them not to return within a mile or two of my business, but thought that was probably unnecessary.

When I chose to confront them, I was willing to go the whole distance with the situation. If the extreme extension of that left the two of them dead on the ground, so be it. The intimidation of the red dot and good sense on their part let the two of them live another day and hopefully deterred their life of crime for at least another 24 hours.

Don't know anything about 'tactical', but I do know two people that are still alive because of a red dot.

 

[Tamara]

jaysouth,

Re: Cat.

Rule Two.

 

[jaysouth]

Tamara

RE: Rule 2

My wife got concerned about that too. She bought me a laser pointer to exercise the cat with.

 

[prairieviper]

I go along with the folks that like laser pointers for cats. Mine loves the laser dot pointer. I doubt I would use a laser mounted on a firearm as a cat toy though. Anyway, I thought evan1293 provided a well written summary of my feelings about lasers mounted on handguns as being pretty much unnecessary at the distances where self defense situations are likely to occur. I also agree with evan1293's assessment that bad guys are probably more concerned that the laser is attached to a gun pointing at them rather than being worried about the little red dot itself. The laser might be an attention getter but I think that counting on serious bad folks to surrender because of it is a mistake.

 

[Tamara]

What I'm wondering is how many people decrying laser aiming devices have actually given them a try. You know, objectively, against the clock. Having someone else set up surprise scenarios at variable distances and variable lighting conditions? As a matter of fact, I wonder how many have ever tried that with or without laser sights.

Truthfully, I wonder how many of the folks decrying laser aiming devices on this thread have ever done any shooting that wasn't at fixed, known distances against paper targets clipped to a traveling target carrier on a well-lit, climate-controlled indoor range.

 

[prairieviper]

What I'm wondering is how many people decrying laser aiming devices have actually given them a try. You know, objectively, against the clock.

I've tried them. I don't need a timer to determine that for me, laser grips are an unnecessary expense.

Having someone else set up surprise scenarios at variable distances and variable lighting conditions? As a matter of fact, I wonder how many have ever tried that with or without laser sights.

Many times in training and some surprises in real life too.

Truthfully, I wonder how many of the folks decrying laser aiming devices on this thread have ever done any shooting that wasn't at fixed, known distances against paper targets clipped to a traveling target carrier on a well-lit, climate-controlled indoor range.

See my answer above. Have you?

I think laser grips or any tool, for that matter, that gives you confidence or helps you improve your shooting is good....for you. Do I think lasers are for everyone? No, I don't. Each person has to decide what is right for them. Lasers are just one tool that may or may not help and are not a panacea for all self defense scenarios or a substitute for proper training. Lasers have limitations. Lasers aren't known for being great under bright light conditions. I'm also inclined to think that unless you spend a lot of time training, the average person will look at the threat and tend not to look for gun sights or laser dots. Of course, that's only my opinion and I could be wrong.

Michael Bane, Downrange Television, whom I respect and other firearms experts are huge advocates of laser grips. In fact, there is a series of videos on Downrange Television that I thought was pretty good titled "CCW Demystified" in which lasers are discussed in a positive light. If anyone is interested the link is http://www.downrange.tv/player.htm?bcpid=452320104&bclid=595234649&bctid=507831596 or you can just go to the Downrange Television homepage at http://www.downrange.tv/.

 

[CraigC]

I'm not convinced they're anything but another gimmick. In a self defense situation, there should be no such thing as a "deterrent". You only draw your gun when you're ready to fire so if you are trying to "deter" an opponent with your gaping muzzle, laser sight, racking shotgun slide, etc. you've already broken the cardinal rule. You don't draw your weapon to scare someone, you draw your weapon to stop a threat.

I'll rely on my point-shooting ability before I'll rely on something that takes batteries.

 

[jmorrell]

I find it interesting that several folks here worry about batteries: a good many of our soldiers in Iraq use Aimpoints that require batteries as their primary sight system, and most of the SWAT teams in this country use EOTechs that also require batteries. If these professionals who put their lives on the line every day rely on a device that requires batteries, why shouldn't a civilian that will unlikely ever face a lethal threat rely on such a device?

 

[Tamara]

the average person will look at the threat and tend not to look for gun sights or laser dots.

That, of course, is the whole idea behind the laser sight, seeing as how the dot is on the threat, and not on the end of your gun. All the laser serves to do is confirm that your gun is pointed where you think it is.

No, they are not a be-all and end-all. No, they are not "required", and nowhere did I say they are.

What originally drew me into this thread is that I have a bit of history here. Out of all those posts over the years are many where I dismissed laser sights as gimmicks, without having actually given them a try. I got called on it, and changed my mind after giving them a try.

Like I said, I think they're useful, but I don't think they're mandatory. I have them on my pocket-carry J-frame, but not on the 1911's that are my primary belt guns. (And this is not even going into their other uses, such as what good training aids they are, or how they help folks with lousy eyesight.)

On the other hand, there are a bunch of people in this thread (and I'm not referring to you) who have got everything figured out without even trying it; who know the right solution for everybody in every situation. It's the curse of the internet gun board, I guess.

 

[prairieviper]

On the other hand, there are a bunch of people in this thread (and I'm not referring to you) who have got everything figured out without even trying it; who know the right solution for everybody in every situation. It's the curse of the internet gun board, I guess.

It is prevalent on gun boards for some reason. I am far from an expert and hopefully do not come across as a know-it-all. I like to share what I have learned through training and life experiences and if someone else can gain from it that's great.

 

[jaysouth]

Please go back and read my post #45 in this thread. In a real world confrontation, after dark, two young black criminals ceased and desisted from their criminal efforts and left without further confrontation.

I was fully prepared to shoot to kill the both of them without much more provocation. After being targeted with a laser dot, they returned my property its proper place and left me money for the broken lock AND did not return every again.

It would appear that they spread the word amongst their kitch and brethern. That was my 11th and final break-in in less than five years in that spot. I did business at that location for another 10 years without any break-ins.

 

[Slopemeno]

Tamara-
Actually, some friends and I tried them against the clock, on pepper poppers.

What we found was this- On a handgun, finding the dot again at real speed was the issue. Now, to be fair we were all fairly experienced Action Shooting sports competitors, and we really hadn't socked the kind of training into using the laser as we had with our plain black sights.

The interesting thing we did find was that on the shotgun/long gun it was a bit of an advantage, and our thinking was the stock/cheekweld stabilized the dot enough that you could make better use of it. A 10/22 with a decent laser is a brutal setup for small game.

 

[Tamara]

Slopemeno,

I didn't find much advantage either when running from a belt holster at targets ~7yds or greater. The biggest difference I noticed was shooting from retention at powder burn distance (3-5 yards), especially with multiple IPSC-type targets. I got more A-zone hits, and faster, with than I did without. (Again, I was using Speer indoor training loads out of a 442 for those drills. The cats were not amused.)

 

[DENALI]

I've never read "Combat Handguns" magazine. I have been attacked on multiple occasions while conducting group therapy/treatment while employed at the old St Paul Ramsey Medical center "Unit 8-south" and while engaged in the same at St Josephs Hospital "Unit's 5-B and 5-A". Speaking as a man who was trained extensively in repelling and containing violent explosive attacks I can say with certainty, you will revert to the level of your training, and that may not be enough even under the best scenarios.

 

[Tamara]

Okay.

 

[Wildalaska]

I am a strong suporter of Laser Sights for those who want to use them. What bothers me is the tendency for new shooters to rely on them.

If you can't pull your J Frame without a Laser and hit what you aim at, you have no business just putting a laser on and using it as a crutch.

Learn to Shoot first. Laser Later.

BTW I like the pulsating of the LMs over the CTC....

WildbeamhitAlaska TM

PS I do not own a laser.

PPS as to battery life, I have used CTC Laser Grips for over an year as a feline and canine excersize tool. If you dont have critters, they should last forever.