Why laser sights?
- Thread starter John D
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The intimidation factor alone is significant. Seeing a red dot on your chest means your opponent has acquired his target and your in trouble! Actually, they are used in LE. I have one myself in one of my carry guns and believe in it.
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http://www.lasermax.com/products/trafficStop.php
Sgt.Fathead
Moderator
Sold!
I have been in a gunfight but, lemmesee; seventeen years ago and it was mostly belt fed action and I had lots and lots of support from my fellow Marines and vice versa. Actually, I've traded shots more than once and from what I remember oh so vividly then, young and well trained, in good shape, raring to go (ie; too stupid to know real fear), it was no easy task to accomplish.
I am sold on laser grips to the point that I have just ordered Crimson Trace grips for my one GP100 and my wife's S&W Model 60. John c is 100% right on the intimidation factor as well as the fact that it just helps get those rounds on target. I ordered the free Crimson Trace package with their DVD and then spoke to several LEO I know. All and I do mean ALL of my cop buddies have laser grips on at least their personal carry guns from 1911s to snubbies. They aren't cheap but neither is my life.
I have been in a gunfight but, lemmesee; seventeen years ago and it was mostly belt fed action and I had lots and lots of support from my fellow Marines and vice versa. Actually, I've traded shots more than once and from what I remember oh so vividly then, young and well trained, in good shape, raring to go (ie; too stupid to know real fear), it was no easy task to accomplish.
I am sold on laser grips to the point that I have just ordered Crimson Trace grips for my one GP100 and my wife's S&W Model 60. John c is 100% right on the intimidation factor as well as the fact that it just helps get those rounds on target. I ordered the free Crimson Trace package with their DVD and then spoke to several LEO I know. All and I do mean ALL of my cop buddies have laser grips on at least their personal carry guns from 1911s to snubbies. They aren't cheap but neither is my life.
chris in va
New member
I was looking at that J-Max for J frames. Looks interesting, not as costly as the Crimson Trace. Laser sits on the bore axis too, away from your fingers.
My opinion is that they're unnesessary. I find it a little hard to believe that a threat would be deterred by noticing a little red dot on their shirt, and not by looking down the gun's muzzle. I haven't heard of any cases where a BG was being covered by a weapon and yet continued to pose a threat, but upon turning on a laser, they decided to surrender. I think that if there were instances where a BG surrenders due to seeing a laser, its probably because they're noticing the gun more so than the laser. I think that in this case, these guys would have surrendered at the presence of a gun, laser or no laser.
I've owned crimsontrace grips before and I do think they are a high quality product. They work as advertised, without a doubt. I don't think they are any help in a gun fight, however. Most gunfights are within 7 yards, with a huge majority of these being inside of 6'. At these distances if your looking for a dot on the BG to fire your shot, your going way too slow. Same goes for trying to aquire the 'classic sight picture.' At these distances, its all about point shooting, flash sight picture, or indexed shooting. Anything else is a waste of time. Even in low light I don't find lasers to be an advantage. I know, personally from training that I can bring my gun up into my line of sight, without really focusing on the sights, and make accurate shots out to 15 yards. This is much faster than trying find a 1/4" dot on a moving adversary, while your moving (because if your shooting, you'll both most likely be moving). Even shooting with the laser from the hip is still going to be slower than indexed shooting, because your having to locate the dot on a dynamic target.
One argument thats always made about laser sights is that they allow you to shoot from one side of cover and observe from the other side. I understand this argument, but often in gun fights, cover is not even utilized. Im a civillian, so any of my deadly force encounters are going to be reactionary. That means that I'll be reacting to an adversaries threat, and hopefully doing the right things to reset his plan and make him have to observe my actions and get him into a reactionary state (as the OODA loop explains). If cover is immediately available I'll take it, but often times its not and trying to hunt for it and move to it, will keep me in the observe / orient stages of the cycle. In the dark, trying to find / move to cover creates a host of problems, especially in an unfamiliar area. The point being, cover is sometimes overrated and we may be better served just by rapidly moving off the X and shooting fast and hard. Laser sights don't offer any advantage to that end, in my opinion. As a friend of mine has said, There comes a time when we should stop buying all the bells and whistles and just invest in ammo and training.
I've owned crimsontrace grips before and I do think they are a high quality product. They work as advertised, without a doubt. I don't think they are any help in a gun fight, however. Most gunfights are within 7 yards, with a huge majority of these being inside of 6'. At these distances if your looking for a dot on the BG to fire your shot, your going way too slow. Same goes for trying to aquire the 'classic sight picture.' At these distances, its all about point shooting, flash sight picture, or indexed shooting. Anything else is a waste of time. Even in low light I don't find lasers to be an advantage. I know, personally from training that I can bring my gun up into my line of sight, without really focusing on the sights, and make accurate shots out to 15 yards. This is much faster than trying find a 1/4" dot on a moving adversary, while your moving (because if your shooting, you'll both most likely be moving). Even shooting with the laser from the hip is still going to be slower than indexed shooting, because your having to locate the dot on a dynamic target.
One argument thats always made about laser sights is that they allow you to shoot from one side of cover and observe from the other side. I understand this argument, but often in gun fights, cover is not even utilized. Im a civillian, so any of my deadly force encounters are going to be reactionary. That means that I'll be reacting to an adversaries threat, and hopefully doing the right things to reset his plan and make him have to observe my actions and get him into a reactionary state (as the OODA loop explains). If cover is immediately available I'll take it, but often times its not and trying to hunt for it and move to it, will keep me in the observe / orient stages of the cycle. In the dark, trying to find / move to cover creates a host of problems, especially in an unfamiliar area. The point being, cover is sometimes overrated and we may be better served just by rapidly moving off the X and shooting fast and hard. Laser sights don't offer any advantage to that end, in my opinion. As a friend of mine has said, There comes a time when we should stop buying all the bells and whistles and just invest in ammo and training.
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john in jax
New member
I've put Crimson Trace laser grips on 3 of my guns and love them. I've never been in a gunfight, so I can't tell you how they'd perform in one, BUT I will tell you that, without a doubt, they will IMPROVE your shooting technique.
That little red dot on a target 10-15 yards away instantly shows you just how critical every little wiggle and flinch is. Dry-fire exercises with lasers can be more instructive and more beneficial to your shooting techniques than any class you might sign up for - - and all in the comfort of your home at your convenience.
That little red dot on a target 10-15 yards away instantly shows you just how critical every little wiggle and flinch is. Dry-fire exercises with lasers can be more instructive and more beneficial to your shooting techniques than any class you might sign up for - - and all in the comfort of your home at your convenience.
I have a Lasermax for my P239. Cost a small fortune. It's sitting back in the box, I put back the original guide rod, spring and takedown. I shoot better without it - when I focus on the dot my precision goes to pot. While it might have a deterrent effect in limited instances, the vast majority of circumstances where a weapon is deployed will be a clear shoot/no-shoot. I'll probably just sell it one of these days.
I do think a LAM can be useful for persons who don't get enough practice in. I wouldn't mind putting one on my parents' pistol. But for me, just doesn't do anything but make a lost or damaged weapon more costly.
I do think a LAM can be useful for persons who don't get enough practice in. I wouldn't mind putting one on my parents' pistol. But for me, just doesn't do anything but make a lost or damaged weapon more costly.
Lasers are a tested, proven and profound tactical advantage in self defense situations....especially in lowlight and awkward shooting situations. They're great for weak eyes and the physically disadvantaged.
They are the sighting system that bridges the gap between point shooting and sighted distance shooting.
With laser sights one can focus on the threat, survey the area and project the POI on the threat.
I've paid for mine with friendly shooting wagers. And the funny thing is that my opponents say that using a laser is 'cheating'.
Well, that's why I have them.
My stuff below:
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Nice Colt CCO Skyguy! I love those guns.
I have a Crimson trace laser on my S&W 642 (just like Skyguy's). I got it because I wanted the ability to aim better in the dark.
Is it necessary? No. If it works then great that's a bonus, if it dies then I'm no worse off that if I never bought it. I train for both plan A and plan B.
The problem isn't with technology itself. The problem is with people who become too dependent on it and can't function without it.
I don't buy the intimidation factor. It's like depending on racking a pump shotgun to scare someone. If the time comes to deploy a weapon, then the window for intimidation has passed. It's now necessary to shoot someone before they kill you.
I have a Crimson trace laser on my S&W 642 (just like Skyguy's). I got it because I wanted the ability to aim better in the dark.
Is it necessary? No. If it works then great that's a bonus, if it dies then I'm no worse off that if I never bought it. I train for both plan A and plan B.
The problem isn't with technology itself. The problem is with people who become too dependent on it and can't function without it.
I don't buy the intimidation factor. It's like depending on racking a pump shotgun to scare someone. If the time comes to deploy a weapon, then the window for intimidation has passed. It's now necessary to shoot someone before they kill you.
I have the Crimson Trace laser grips on my S&W M&P9. If I could get them for my M&Pc I would. I have never been in gunfight and hope to never be in one. In any situation it negates having to find a sight picture, when milliseconds count I could see that being advantageous. The dot is where the bullet will be.
That, and the cat loves to chase it around the house. Laser grip off the gun obviously.
That, and the cat loves to chase it around the house. Laser grip off the gun obviously.
I mocked them for years as frivolous toys. Then I gave them an objective test: Speer plastic bullets indoors, with low light, multiple targets, drawing from the pocket, et cetera. I became a believer, especially for a little pocket gun like an Airweight J-frame. There has been a set of CTC Lasergrips on my pocket J-frame ever since.
The concept that a laser will have a "deterrant" effect on a BG is highly questionable. I doubt that anybody invoved in a firearms type face-off will be looking at their own body, thus will never notice the red laser dot.
They might notice the hole in themselves from the bullet that follows the laser but IMHO the laser spot will never be noticed.
That said, I have a CT laser on my Smith 640 .38 & my Kimber SS compact stainless .45 for all the other reasons noted in previous posts.
Roger
They might notice the hole in themselves from the bullet that follows the laser but IMHO the laser spot will never be noticed.
That said, I have a CT laser on my Smith 640 .38 & my Kimber SS compact stainless .45 for all the other reasons noted in previous posts.
Roger
I'll repost my usual response to the nay-sayers...
I think you are missing the tactical value and the concept of using just a wee bit of judgment in how they are used. They aren't for just waving around carelessly. Given any number of situations they are invaluable. Contrary to popular mythology found in most forums it's not a good idea to stand tall and take slow deliberate Clint Eastwood like aim while bullets wiz by. Being able place a red dot on target and squeeze while diving for cover has saved a more than few lives. The beauty of the laser is it allows a very fast very accurate shot without waiting to align the sights.
When fending off a bad guy and holding your weapon back out of reach it might be nice to have that little dot assure that lead will be hitting his body parts and not yours.
Living in California (no castle laws) it might be nice to light up what is probably an unarmed burglar (most are unarmed) and let the little red dot convince him to submit. Saving cleaning brains off the wall and ugly legal entanglements. Historically this has been a very effective use of a laser.
Finally (risky move) in an in-home hostage emergency it might be nice to put a red dot on target before squeezing the bang button. I'm certainly not surrendering my weapon and my old eyes don't focus on the front sight as well as I'd like anymore and blowing off her right ear while taking out the BG isn't going to make her happy.
What they are not for is extended Hollywood style running gun battles in the fog.
I think you are missing the tactical value and the concept of using just a wee bit of judgment in how they are used. They aren't for just waving around carelessly. Given any number of situations they are invaluable. Contrary to popular mythology found in most forums it's not a good idea to stand tall and take slow deliberate Clint Eastwood like aim while bullets wiz by. Being able place a red dot on target and squeeze while diving for cover has saved a more than few lives. The beauty of the laser is it allows a very fast very accurate shot without waiting to align the sights.
When fending off a bad guy and holding your weapon back out of reach it might be nice to have that little dot assure that lead will be hitting his body parts and not yours.
Living in California (no castle laws) it might be nice to light up what is probably an unarmed burglar (most are unarmed) and let the little red dot convince him to submit. Saving cleaning brains off the wall and ugly legal entanglements. Historically this has been a very effective use of a laser.
Finally (risky move) in an in-home hostage emergency it might be nice to put a red dot on target before squeezing the bang button. I'm certainly not surrendering my weapon and my old eyes don't focus on the front sight as well as I'd like anymore and blowing off her right ear while taking out the BG isn't going to make her happy.
What they are not for is extended Hollywood style running gun battles in the fog.
davlandrum
New member
My mom's husband was just telling me last night he spent $200+ on Crimson Trace grips for his .357 stub. He was very disappointed with the lack of intensity. His opinion is it is worthless in anything other than at night.
I have yet to see them.
I have yet to see them.
Whether or not they really have a value I'm not sure. I do know they tend to serve as a crutch for some folks in that they think they'll become crack shots immediately.
A few range trips back, I was shooting my surplus P6 and keeping everything grouped nicely at POA. Noticed a red dot flash on the target next to me and heard the boom of a .45 - and I didn't see a hole in the target. I watched this fella shoot for a while and it was comical as his target looked like it was hit by a buckshot scatter gun.
Went back to shooting the P6 and during a mag reload, the guy in the lane next to me asked what I was shooting that was so accurate. I showed him the surplus gun and he developed a huge frown. He then showed me his loaded Kimber with the Crimson Trace grips and shook his head.
As we were checking out, he said the gun shop that sold him the rig (for a lot of $$$) guaranteed it would be accurate. I'm sure the gun is...
A few range trips back, I was shooting my surplus P6 and keeping everything grouped nicely at POA. Noticed a red dot flash on the target next to me and heard the boom of a .45 - and I didn't see a hole in the target. I watched this fella shoot for a while and it was comical as his target looked like it was hit by a buckshot scatter gun.
Went back to shooting the P6 and during a mag reload, the guy in the lane next to me asked what I was shooting that was so accurate. I showed him the surplus gun and he developed a huge frown. He then showed me his loaded Kimber with the Crimson Trace grips and shook his head.
As we were checking out, he said the gun shop that sold him the rig (for a lot of $$$) guaranteed it would be accurate. I'm sure the gun is...
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