Why does Remington mock me with their brass?
- Thread starter FrankenMauser
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603Country
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Very recently I've bought Nosler and Hornady for the 223 and Norma cases for the 270. Of the 223 cases, I much prefer the Nosler. They were fully prepped and were rather tight in the weight range. Very nice. The Hornady needed some prep, but they weren't advertised as being ready to load, so no problem there. The Noslers, for whatever reason, do seem to produce smaller groups than the Hornadys. I can't explain it, since all cases were equally prepared, but there it is. As for the 270 brass from Norma, of the 100 cases, one was damaged beyond salvage and two were well out of the max/min weight range. So I got 97% usability from Norma. Except for that one bad Norma case (case mouth was ruined) I didn't see any really non-standard problems on any of the Norma, Nosler, Hornady cases. As for the cases that are being replaced, which are Winchester and Remington, I honestly have not seen anything that was worrisome. I've gotten good service from them. I will say that the 220 Swift cases from Winchester have never given me quite the accuracy that I got from Norma cases they replaced. Still, I didn't do the comparison on the same range, with the same targets, and I have gotten a bit older. So maybe it isn't the cases....
FrankenMauser
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For .220 Swift, my Norma brass also gives better performance. However, it doesn't fit any standard shell holders, and is much softer than the Winchester brass I have ("W-W", "Super-X", and plain "Winchester"). Brass flows faster in the Norma brass, and primer pockets loosen before primers even hint at high pressure. But... that is limited to the .220 Swift, and those particular lots of brass. I've never had issues using Norma for other cartridges (though that experience is much more limited).
603Country
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The RCBS Number 11 shellholder fits the 220 Swift Norma brass, or at least fits the Norma brass that I have. I've about phased that brass out, due to having shot and reloaded it maybe too many times. I have tossed a few Norma cases due to loose primer pockets, and there have been a couple of split necks, but overall they've been great. I plan to order more soon, but admittedly am not looking forward to all the prep work, so I haven't ordered yet. I'd order some from Nosler, but they don't plan to make any Swift brass. I called them to get that bad information.
frankenmauser,
That RP brass might have been sold as new brass, but it sure looks like range brass. Hard to imagine that it came out of Remington like that. More than likely it, if actually new, was damaged at the store or in transit. I don't think you can hold this against Remington but I strongly recommend you discuss the issue with Remington anyway. New RP .35 Whelen brass is sold by Midway and other on-line vendors where it gets high marks in reviews. Why not purchase some from them and forget the local vendors who are not giving you good service?
That RP brass might have been sold as new brass, but it sure looks like range brass. Hard to imagine that it came out of Remington like that. More than likely it, if actually new, was damaged at the store or in transit. I don't think you can hold this against Remington but I strongly recommend you discuss the issue with Remington anyway. New RP .35 Whelen brass is sold by Midway and other on-line vendors where it gets high marks in reviews. Why not purchase some from them and forget the local vendors who are not giving you good service?
FrankenMauser
New member
Midway has serious issues with properly packaging the things I order. In the last 4 years, I've only had 3 successful orders that did not require a call to customer service, to tell them how many items were destroyed. Part of it is Midway's fault; part of it is the carriers' fault.
I'll spare you the details, but... The short version is: I live in an area classified as "rural delivery" by USPS, FedEx, and UPS - even though I'm in a suburb of Salt Lake City.
Shipments are not treated well, between the shipper and my door. I cannot order fragile items, especially from companies that can't figure out how to safely pack the boxes.
I can't order brass from mail-order or online merchants, unless I know the brass is pre-packaged in its own box (such as the Hornady .44 Mag).
As you, and others, have said, the .35 Whelen brass was likely damaged in shipping. It's very common for Remington brass. The degree of this damage is far worse than usual, though. (Likely attributed to R-P .35 Whelen brass having thin necks.)
I'm not being as articulate or clear as I would like. I'll try to revisit this post, and edit it later on.
I remember when Remchester new brass came in cartridge boxes.That was back when I thought I was in good shape if I had 40 rounds of brass.I recall as the bulk brass came out,in bags,we were cautioned in the fine print it may have imperfections.
Without making excuses for anyone,not so long ago we were frustrated because there was no brass.High production demands to catch up lead to quality problems escaping.Its not OK,but it does happen.
I think Hornady will be happy to make that .44 brass right.If they were unaware of this brass escape,they will be tracing lots and processes and looking for whodunit.
On Remington.....I dunno.There might be some "take it,or leave it" atitude.
My 35 Whelen was before factory brass,I used Bullseye and Cream of Wheat.
That gave me good,uniform wall necks.Expander ball necking up,seemed the stretch was localized,I'd get a thin side.
What is REALLY sad,likely,some time not long from now,these will be the good old days.Love it while you have it.
Without making excuses for anyone,not so long ago we were frustrated because there was no brass.High production demands to catch up lead to quality problems escaping.Its not OK,but it does happen.
I think Hornady will be happy to make that .44 brass right.If they were unaware of this brass escape,they will be tracing lots and processes and looking for whodunit.
On Remington.....I dunno.There might be some "take it,or leave it" atitude.
My 35 Whelen was before factory brass,I used Bullseye and Cream of Wheat.
That gave me good,uniform wall necks.Expander ball necking up,seemed the stretch was localized,I'd get a thin side.
What is REALLY sad,likely,some time not long from now,these will be the good old days.Love it while you have it.
I've bought 3 boxes of nosler brass and I can't say I'm disappointed. Other than 1 piece of 150 cases of brass they were all spot on. One piece had a bent in case neck, not bad enough to destroy the case. All the cases were consistent in deburring of the flashhole also which is a nice touch. Since its a thicker than remington/winchester I lose a little powder capacity, All the cases were within 1 grain of each other also. Although after reading some I'm not going to look that much into weight of brass anymore. I haven't had lapua yet but for 35$ a box for .308 I'm hard pressed to buy lapua.
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Poodleshooter
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This is why I only use hand-selected cases from the range floor!
Doodlebugger45
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Wow. That is some seriously deformed brass. I would be upset as well. I don't buy a whole lot of new factory brass these days. But I do typically try to keep at least one bag of new brass on hand for each rifle just in case I want to start a new cycle to track something in particular. I guess all I can say is that I must be very lucky. Most of my new rifle brass has been Winchester for the simple reason that the local stores tend to stock it the most. I have not had any of the issues described at all. Maybe one out of 20 will have a slight dent at the mouth, but easily fixed by the expander button. I have one bag of Remington brass that I pulled 20 pieces of brass for my 7 MM Mag out of the other day. It was close to perfect.
I am wondering if there is some consistent trend here, whether it is caliber or date or something else.
I am wondering if there is some consistent trend here, whether it is caliber or date or something else.
FrankenMauser
New member
Hornady issued a return authorization, and sent a label. They didn't say they'd actually replace the brass, but I'm sure they'll just send another box out when they get this one.
Remington told me their brass sometimes gets damaged during shipment. (Really? Who'd have known?) They are supposed to be mailing me a coupon, or certificate, or something. I don't like the response, but the person I talked to was quite friendly.
I'll consider the .35 Whelen brass an isolated incident, but the previous lots (.30-06 Nickel, .303 British, and .30-40 Krag) had more problems than just shipping damage. They are going to leave a lasting impression. I'll definitely be inspecting brass better, right after the purchase (when -before- is not an option). I generally just put the bag/box of new brass behind any older brass on my shelves, when I buy more (to rotate stock). With the .30-40 Krag and .35 Whelen, that meant I didn't discover the issues until some time later.
Perhaps I'll just go to Winchester .30-06 for .35 Whelen. Once formed, they have better neck tension than the R-P brass, and the necks are the within 0.002" of the R-P neck thickness.
I also have 50 pieces of Win .30-06 left, that have excessively thick necks (for new brass) at .30 caliber. Once opened to .35 caliber, they have 0.017"-0.019" thick necks. - just about perfect, and ~30% thicker than R-P factory.
In summary:
Hornady appears to be making things right.
Remington responded as expected.
Winchester's poor neck forming may finally be a benefit, in a single, limited application.
Remington told me their brass sometimes gets damaged during shipment. (Really? Who'd have known?
) They are supposed to be mailing me a coupon, or certificate, or something. I don't like the response, but the person I talked to was quite friendly. I'll consider the .35 Whelen brass an isolated incident, but the previous lots (.30-06 Nickel, .303 British, and .30-40 Krag) had more problems than just shipping damage. They are going to leave a lasting impression. I'll definitely be inspecting brass better, right after the purchase (when -before- is not an option). I generally just put the bag/box of new brass behind any older brass on my shelves, when I buy more (to rotate stock). With the .30-40 Krag and .35 Whelen, that meant I didn't discover the issues until some time later.
Perhaps I'll just go to Winchester .30-06 for .35 Whelen. Once formed, they have better neck tension than the R-P brass, and the necks are the within 0.002" of the R-P neck thickness.
I also have 50 pieces of Win .30-06 left, that have excessively thick necks (for new brass) at .30 caliber. Once opened to .35 caliber, they have 0.017"-0.019" thick necks. - just about perfect, and ~30% thicker than R-P factory.
In summary:
Hornady appears to be making things right.
Remington responded as expected.
Winchester's poor neck forming may finally be a benefit, in a single, limited application.
I bought some Winchester brass about a month ago and all of mine was the same way yours is. I had to resize them all and several were tossed in the scrap bucket because the cases looked like a melted piece of plastic. Your not picky but when your buying "quality" you expect quality, no need to hold back. WRITE A LETTER!!! LOL
Hey FM...
It occurred to me today that .35 Whelen was basically a wildcat for a number of decades. And I was thinking that many of the popular wildcats are pretty easy to form, 'cause that's how so many of them get popular as wildcats.
I believe .35 Whelen is simply a necked-up .30/06.
How come you aren't forming these instead of buying them?
It occurred to me today that .35 Whelen was basically a wildcat for a number of decades. And I was thinking that many of the popular wildcats are pretty easy to form, 'cause that's how so many of them get popular as wildcats.
I believe .35 Whelen is simply a necked-up .30/06.
How come you aren't forming these instead of buying them?
FrankenMauser
New member
I just wanted some brass with the correct head stamp.
I have some .35 Whelen formed from .30-06 (the lot previously mentioned with horribly thick necks at .30 caliber). In the future, I'll probably keep an eye out for .270 Win or .280 Rem brass for forming. The extra working of the brass (more expansion required) affects the life of the cases, but the .30-03 length is nice to work with. Although, you do end up with thin necks like R-P factory brass (R-P .35 Whelen is reported to be drawn as .280 Rem, until the final forming step - which results in the thin necks).
handlerer2
New member
I have only had one experience with Rem bag brass and it was a bad one. I bought 20 pieces of Rem brass for 300WBY, for $7.00. I thought that was a bargain,so I thought that I would try it.
I had a good load that I liked using WBY-Norma brass, which I knocked two grains off of , because I always start light. I was loading a Hornady 190gr jspbt that I have good results with. As I said I reduced the normal load and was very surprised signs of very high pressure on the first case and the primer was missing on #2. That was all I fired of those. I have loaded the same bullet to higher velocity, over 3100fps, with no signs of excessive pressure, using WBY brass. The average velocity of the two rounds I fired using the Rem bag brass was under 3000fps. Go figure?
Is Norma brass that much better than domestic brass? I believe that bag brass may be inferior,and is exposed to possibly sloppy handling. I can see boxes of bullets piled in the same container for shipping. It is also possible that I have become accostomed to the quality of Norma brass because I reload and shoot two WBY rifles, 300WBY, and a 340WBY so I had until then only used factory brass to reload.
I wonder now just how much would I have to reduce my loads to even be used? Or should I just scrap them?
I had a good load that I liked using WBY-Norma brass, which I knocked two grains off of , because I always start light. I was loading a Hornady 190gr jspbt that I have good results with. As I said I reduced the normal load and was very surprised signs of very high pressure on the first case and the primer was missing on #2. That was all I fired of those. I have loaded the same bullet to higher velocity, over 3100fps, with no signs of excessive pressure, using WBY brass. The average velocity of the two rounds I fired using the Rem bag brass was under 3000fps. Go figure?
Is Norma brass that much better than domestic brass? I believe that bag brass may be inferior,and is exposed to possibly sloppy handling. I can see boxes of bullets piled in the same container for shipping. It is also possible that I have become accostomed to the quality of Norma brass because I reload and shoot two WBY rifles, 300WBY, and a 340WBY so I had until then only used factory brass to reload.
I wonder now just how much would I have to reduce my loads to even be used? Or should I just scrap them?
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FrankenMauser
New member
My experience with Norma brass doesn't match yours. So...
I don't have any useful advice for you, other than to suggest checking actual grains-of-water case capacity of each brand - and going from there.
Those necks don't look all that bad. They just look like what happens from tumbling and being bounced around in shipping. I use a cut down drift punch for 30 caliber and up and a nail set for .284 and smaller. Less than 10 inutes work and those necks would be fine. Much ado about nothing.
Paul B.
Paul B.
FrankenMauser
New member
I'm very familiar with marketing and sales techniques. It's just that Remington and Winchester still put out a product that is perfectly usable for the average reloader. For more picky reloaders, the brass requires a little prep, but is still generally worth the cost. Until these last few lots of R-P brass, my only complaint with Remington was the dented mouths.
For my uses, the .35 Whelen doesn't need premium brass. Formed brass or R-P .35 Whelen will do what I need it to. Its only intended uses are: Squirrels/Rabbits (practice). Large Cervidae (Elk, Moose). Buffalo (if I ever get around to buying points for the draw). For those uses, I don't need premium brass.
However, other cartridges (.270 Win, .30-06, .243 Win) may become premium-only propositions - so long as I can afford it. I've got enough brass on hand to last quite a while, though (20 years?). In the mix are 100 Lapua .30-06, ~40 Norma .30-06, ~40 Norma .270 Win., a handful of Norma .243 Win, ONE Lapua .243 Win
, and I think I have some Nosler .270 Win. (The .220 Swift is being rebarreled to .243 Win, so all that beautiful Norma brass will be sold off.)I do have some direct comparisons set up with Lapua vs R-P vs Win vs LC 69 in the .30-06. I'm hoping to be able to shoot it all over Easter weekend.
--
I received a PM, asking if Hornady had responded to me. So, I figured I'd just post here.
Hornady is scheduled to get the brass tomorrow ("early delivery"). I doubt there will be any one there to handle the return; so, I'll probably not hear from them until Monday. I'll let your know what they say.
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