Why aren't revolvers pistols anymore?

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Mike Irwin

Staff
Did you actually READ any of the dictionary definitions that were posted above, Carbon?

What's the source for your definition?

Hum...

I wonder if a handgun, then, is only proper a gun made from someone's hand?
 
A

AngusPodgorney

New member
The definition of Pistol is a handgun where the barrel and chamber are one piece. Therefore singleshots, deringers, auto's etc are all pistols. Revolvers are revolvers.
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Where did that come from? So what about my Browning High Power with a two piece barrel? I guess that's not a pistol, and it definately isn't a revolver...

Ed
 
H

Handy

Moderator
Main Entry: pis·tol
Pronunciation: 'pis-t&l
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle French pistole, from German, from Middle High German pischulle, from Czech píst'ala, literally, pipe, fife; akin to Czech pistet to squeak
: a handgun whose chamber is integral with the barrel; broadly : HANDGUN

The heart of this is this last line. While it does end with handgun, it prefaces it with "broadly". The first definition is a more specific or technical one, the second is by common usage. Both can be right because that's the way English is - often common usage is not correct in a technical light. Sam Colt was not an etymologist - so he used (or misused) a common term to describe his product.

If you wish to call a revolver a pistol, that's just fine. But those who want to take a more precise view of it are perfectly correct in doing so, since such a technical definition exists.

The only thing that is foolish here is some parties suggesting that they are "right" about their choice. Because it is only a choice.



AngusP, they are talking about two pieces from a functional standpoint - not a construction technique. I don't imagine you've ever taken your barrel apart.
 
M

Mike Irwin

Staff
Handy,

That's the Merriam-Webster definition.

Please go back to the first page and note how Merriam-Webster CONTRADICTS itself in its definitions.

As I've noted, Merriam-Webster finds little use among people who are serious about the language.

For Christ's sake, these are the same people who had, for decades (and may still have) an outline drawing of a cartridge. The arrow pointing to the primer was actually pointing to the flash hole in the case head and was labeled "Fulminate."
 
M

Mal H

Staff
Ok, I hefted the Oxford English Dictionary off the shelf and looked up that very controversial word.

Pistol sb. 1570 (a. obs. F, pistole)
A small fire-arm with a more or less curved stock, adapted to be held in, and fired with one hand.

End of definition. Nothing about revolvers or integral chambers and barrels. Fini.

Works for me.
 
H

Handy

Moderator
Webster doesn't contradict anything, as I explained. It offers two incompatible definitions that are both in use, because they are both in use. It isn't the dictionaries fault that common usage isn't strictly logical.

This is no different than the word "man". How can it mean those of a certain gender and all people at the same time? Do we toss out any dictionary that suggests such a contradiction?
 
D

Dave85

New member
"Sam Colt was not an etymologist - so he used (or misused) a common term to describe his product."
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Did he? When he introduced the revolver, was the dictionary definition of pistol "a handgun whose chamber is integral with the barrel...?" With out the prior existence of handguns with chambers separate from their barrels, why would this distinction be made? It is my experience that dictionaries generally do not take as yet uninvented technologies into consideration when composing their definitions. I have not seen automobiles defined as "a motor-vehicle which touches the ground." If, at the time, it simply meant "handgun," he would have been using it correctly.


"Sam Colt was not an etymologist..."
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Pardon me for asking, but this statement begs the question: are you?

Maybe you are, but even so, one need not be to know what a word means. Remember, too, he was involved in the design and manufacture of firearms, not just the marketing of them. Thus we can assume he had working knowledge of the terms of the trade. Much as a mechanic is not an etymologist, but would not confuse carburation with fuel injection.

If anyone has access to a dictionary of the period just prior to the introduction of the Patterson revolver (pre-1836), this would be very instructive.

Mal H.,
What is the copyright date of your OED? And since many autos don't have what most would consider "more or less curved stocks," are autos not pistols? :D
 
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Mal H

Staff
:D Good point! Now folks have to start convincing us that a semiauto is properly called a pistol.

My OED is copyright 1937, OUP. Yeah, I know, but I can't afford to buy a newer edition.
 
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Quartus

New member
Handy,

That's the Merriam-Webster definition.

Please go back to the first page and note how Merriam-Webster CONTRADICTS itself in its definitions.
Click to expand...


Merriam Webster is about as reliable a source on the English language as Teddy Kennedy is on driving.


They sold out to the deconstructionists long ago.
 
F

FirstFreedom

Moderator
Ok, then, it's settled!

The most authoritative sources, Oxford and American Heritage, say pistol=handgun. Webster is odd man out. A revolver IS a pistol. So let it be written; so let it be done!

(but what's with a "more or less curved stock"? WTH? The "stock" on my 1911 is a parallelogram - the grip - it's not curved at all - not more nor less).
 
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fyrestarter

New member
After my last heated debate concerning linguistics, I was hesitant to get involved in this discussion. However, I am more than adequately armed, so:

Pistol:

pistol - "small hand-held firearm," c.1570, from M.Fr. pistole "short firearm" (1566), of uncertain origin, sometimes said to be from Ger. Pistole, from Czech pis'tala "firearm," lit. "tube, pipe," from pisteti "to whistle," of imitative origin, related to Rus. pischal "shepherd's pipe." But earlier form pistolet (1550) is from M.Fr. pistolet "a small firearm," also "a small dagger," which may be the literal sense; though some connect this word with It. pistolese, in reference to Pistoia, town in Tuscany noted for gunsmithing. (Douglas Harper, consummate Etymologist)

"French pistole, from German, from Middle High German pischulle, from Czech pít'ala, pipe, whistle, firearm, from pitti, to whistle, of imitative origin." (Dictionary.com)

"A pistol is a usually small, hand held, projectile weapon, meant for personal use (used by one person) in short-range action. In the 15th Century, the term was used for small knives and daggers which could be concealed in a person's clothing. This may derive from the city of Pistoia, Italy, where daggers were manufactured. By the 18th century the term came to be used exclusively to refer to small firearms, or additionally, and more recently, similar devices designed for the aimed discharge of projectiles by the force of gas pressure stored by other than chemical means." (wikipedia)

"PISTOL
A weapon originally designed, made, and intended to fire a projectile (bullet) from one or more barrels when held in one hand, and having (a) a chamber(s) as an integral part(s) of, or permanently aligned with, the bore(s); and (b) a short stock designed to be gripped by one hand and at an angle to and extending below the line of the bore(s)." (BATFE GLossary)

"REVOLVER
A projectile weapon of the pistol type, having a breechloading chambered cylinder so arranged that the cocking of the hammer or movement of the trigger rotates it and brings the next cartridge in line with the barrel for firing." (BATFE Glossary)

And finally,

"Synonymous with "handgun." A gun that is generally held in one hand. It may be of the single-shot, multi-barrel, repeating or semi-automatic variety and includes revolvers." (NRA Glossary)

By logical deduction, therefore, All Revolvers are Pistols, but not all Pistols are Revolvers :)
 
H

Handy

Moderator
I said from the outset that the word has more than one meaning.

What's tripping me out is that you all just voted to ignore one of those meanings because it just doesn't sound right??? Even the BATF acknowledges the unpopular definition of pistol.

I just don't see how you all can be so black and white on this. While it is true that a revolver is a pistol, one definition clearly shows that "pistol" can be used as an exclusive term to mean "not a revolver". Why is that so awful?
 
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Mal H

Staff
FirstFreedom - I guess we could continue this ad infinitum, but I believe by "more or less curved", they mean the stock is not in a straight line with the barrel. Checking the OED for the definition of 'curve', they say that higher geometry includes the straight line in the set of all curves (or words to that effect). I seriously doubt your 1911 grip is a true parallelogram, and further, where it attaches to the frame there is most likely a small curve. So there!
:D
 
M

Mal H

Staff
Handy - you are right, of course. There are thousands of words in English with more than one definition. Some have contradictory definitions. No reason why 'pistol' shouldn't have two definitions.
 
C

Carbon_15

New member
the chamber wherein a pistol's charge is ignited, is fixed in relationship to its barrel -- thus the term technically excludes revolvers, although in colloquial usage this distinction is commonly ignored, and revolvers are quite commonly, albeit informally, referred to as "pistols".
See Here

The pistol has one chamber (originally it was a single shot weapon), though it may have a magazine to feed it multiple rounds;
See Pistol vs. revolver

PISTOL
A weapon originally designed, made, and intended to fire a projectile (bullet) from one or more barrels when held in one hand, and having (a) a chamber(s) as an integral part(s) of, or permanently aligned with, the bore(s);
ATF themselves...


Just because some people falsly leave this definition out dosn't mean it isn't correct. Just because some folks think clip and magazine mean the same thing dosn't make that correct either.
 
D

Dave85

New member
Carbon15,

The BATF site defines a revolver thus (as previously posted by fyrestarter):

REVOLVER
A projectile weapon of the pistol type, having a breechloading chambered cylinder so arranged that the cocking of the hammer or movement of the trigger rotates it and brings the next cartridge in line with the barrel for firing.

This definition seems to make revolvers a subcategory of pistols. This means revolvers are pistols, although the reverse is not true.

I guess the most important issue here is that, armed with a wheelgun, I need to know that I can correctly think of myself as a "pistolero."
 
C

C_Yeager

New member
This definition seems to make revolvers a subcategory of pistols. This means revolvers are pistols, although the reverse is not true.
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If revolvers are a subcategory of pistols then the reverse most certainly is true.

In other words; all revolvers are pistols but, not all pistols are revolvers.
 
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