turkeestalker
New member
Don't take that wrong, I like pretty targets too.
Why are red dot optics not standard from the OEM?
- Thread starter rpenmanparker
- Start date
Rangerrich99
New member
In response to the original question, "Why are red dot optics not standard from the OEM?" I believe the answer is simply cost plus anticipated customer preferences. For example, say I buy a S&W M&P9 and S&W decides to offer all these guns with a red dot from company X for an extra $50 or whatever. Well, what if the customer for whatever reason doesn't want a red dot but something else? Or what if he likes red dots but doesn't like the red dot from company X? At that point, the extra $50 is a waste of money in the eyes of the customer. He/she may at that point decide to buy a gun from another company simply to avoid paying for something they don't want.
Personally, I like red dots enough that I have them on a couple rifles and a shotgun, and for the purposes of those arms I find that they work very well.
I have never considered a red dot on one of my defensive handguns, mostly because of their generally much taller aspect and how that limits my options as holsters are concerned. I have a couple lasers on two of my SD/HD handguns because they are down the side of the gun and so do not require special holsters. And I already have a considerable sum of money invested in the holsters I already have. I'm not terribly excited to research and purchase yet more holsters just to fit a red dot or two. Or three.
I have thought about putting a reflex red dot on my S&W .22 Victory because I do like how much easier it is to aim and shoot over traditional irons, but it's not a defensive gun and I don't even have a holster for it.
Anyway, just my two cents.
Personally, I like red dots enough that I have them on a couple rifles and a shotgun, and for the purposes of those arms I find that they work very well.
I have never considered a red dot on one of my defensive handguns, mostly because of their generally much taller aspect and how that limits my options as holsters are concerned. I have a couple lasers on two of my SD/HD handguns because they are down the side of the gun and so do not require special holsters. And I already have a considerable sum of money invested in the holsters I already have. I'm not terribly excited to research and purchase yet more holsters just to fit a red dot or two. Or three.
I have thought about putting a reflex red dot on my S&W .22 Victory because I do like how much easier it is to aim and shoot over traditional irons, but it's not a defensive gun and I don't even have a holster for it.
Anyway, just my two cents.
rpenmanparker
New member
The very economical Bushnell TRS-25 works great on the Victory. I have the carbon fiber reinforced lightweight barrel from Volquartsen for mine, and damn, that thing shoots! I like the closed tube red dot for the target .22. It just seems to belong on it. And I really like the 11-position power knob.
See what I said above about holsters that are cut away for the red dot on top of the slide. Mernickle makes a nice product.
rpenmanparker
New member
Fret not. I understood you perfectly.
rpenmanparker
New member
Here is the SR1911 in the Mernickle holster with clearance for the Sightmark optic:
rpenmanparker
New member
And here is the LC9s with and without a simple one size fits all holster. Still pretty compact.
turkeestalker
New member
....and those are why I'll stick to irons. 
rpenmanparker
New member
Sheesh! What a killjoy.....and those are why I'll stick to irons.
Bob Wright
New member
I hope I never see a time when a gun such is this is offered only with a Red Dot sight:
Bob Wright
Bob Wright
Price and form factor.
Adding an OEM rds to most pistols would be a 50% price hike at min. Can I sell a M&P 9 with a $200 red dot for $650? How many will complain that is a throwaway rds to be pitched and replaced with an rmr?
The rds is adding quite a bit of size to your pistol. In CCW, this is detrimental imo. On an hd gun, probably a good idea.
Adding an OEM rds to most pistols would be a 50% price hike at min. Can I sell a M&P 9 with a $200 red dot for $650? How many will complain that is a throwaway rds to be pitched and replaced with an rmr?
The rds is adding quite a bit of size to your pistol. In CCW, this is detrimental imo. On an hd gun, probably a good idea.
rpenmanparker
New member
Everybody sure likes those RMRs it seems. Damn those things are pricey. I am so satisfied with Sightmark Mini Pro Specs for $100. Sometimes for reasons of mounting idiosyncrasies I need to double that outlay to $200 for a Burris Fastfire 3. They both work great. So far I see no need to go higher than that.
I'm typically a handgun irons type guy. About 8 months ago I decided to try a Vortex Venom dot on my FNX45T. I'm still on the fence if I truly like the dot better than irons. The advantage of a dot in my observations seems to be at 25-50 yds. I seem to have more consistent accuracy at longer handgun distances. The problem with a dot is the difficulty in obtaining very quick target acquisition. It takes me longer with a dot. Target acquisition with irons is very quick. Adding a dot to a new mfg firearm would dramatically increase the cost. In this day and age of everyone wanting "cheap" that type of added cost won't fly for boosting new gun sales. YMMV
rpenmanparker
New member
The whole point of red dots is the superior speed of acquisition. That is why they are favored by special forces.
Aguila Blanca
Staff
Perhaps on rifles. Do any special forces, from any nation's military, use red dots on their handguns? Personally, I find red dots [actually, green in my case, since I can't see red dots in many lighting conditions] much slower to acquire than open sights on handguns.rpenmanparker said:
Cheapshooter
New member
^
This!
I have a great deal of difficulty sometimes finding the dot.
I have absolutely no trouble with point and shoot instinct shooting at SD distance. Most often not even noticing the sights.
This!
I have a great deal of difficulty sometimes finding the dot.
I have absolutely no trouble with point and shoot instinct shooting at SD distance. Most often not even noticing the sights.
turkeestalker
New member
^^^
Which means you're likely doing things correctly.
Which means you're likely doing things correctly.
rpenmanparker
New member
Here is an interesting article fairly pointing out advantages and drawbacks to pistol mounted red dots:
https://sofrep.com/97321/red-dot-sights-pistols-2/
https://sofrep.com/97321/red-dot-sights-pistols-2/
Mackie244Bud
New member
Many manufactures are either offering Red Dot's on their handguns out of the box or like the Glock 19 MOS with the slide milled out and mounting plates.
Article here:
https://www.personaldefenseworld.com/2014/12/8-reflex-ready-handguns-right-out-of-the-box/
Sig Sauer seems to be leading the way with actual out of the box Red Dot handguns featuring their Romeo 1 Red Dot's.
The P320 RX Full Size & Compact 9mm's
The P226 RX Full-Size in 9mm
The P226 Legion RX Full-Size in 9mm Luger / 357 SIG / 40 S&W
The P227 RX Full-Size in 45 Auto
Smith & Wesson’s Pro Series C.O.R.E. (Competition Optics Ready Equipment) line of M&P pistols includes the M&P40 and M&P40L—both chambered in .40 S&W and the latter with a longer slide—as well as the M&P9 and M&P9L chambered in 9mm.
All four models have slides milled to accept one of six mini reflex sights, including the Trijicon RMR, Leupold DeltaPoint, JPoint, Docter, C-More STS or Insight MRDS.
Like all the newly introduced guns from Sig Sauer and Robar, the C.O.R.E. pistols have iron sights with higher bases than normal so that the sights can be seen and used through the window of the reflex sight in an emergency.
I saw via ShotShow 2018 that Walther came out with their PPS M2 with the Shield RMSC Red Dot.
I see manufacturers testing the Red Dot waters if you will and depending on how the sales of their Red Dot mounted or Red Dot ready pistols, will tell them how much further to head into the waters!
For Sig it's easy, they have their Romeo 1 and Walther partnered with Shield and their RMSC Red Dot.
Some manufacturers can offer a full Red Dot package.
But for Glock & S&W etc. whose Red Dot do they put on their guns?
They don't know so they opt out to let US decide which Red Dot to use.
However that is not very advantageous to US pricing wise.
With Glock & S&W's CORE We have to pay retail for both the gun and Red Dot, rather than a discounted pricing from say Walther that has a MSRP of less than $700.00 for their PPS M2 and Shield RMSC.
Their partnering with Shield & Sig's Romeo 1 saves us money due to their package pricing.
The Red Dot phenom is building...It will get better with time.
Mackie244 / Bud
Article here:
https://www.personaldefenseworld.com/2014/12/8-reflex-ready-handguns-right-out-of-the-box/
Sig Sauer seems to be leading the way with actual out of the box Red Dot handguns featuring their Romeo 1 Red Dot's.
The P320 RX Full Size & Compact 9mm's
The P226 RX Full-Size in 9mm
The P226 Legion RX Full-Size in 9mm Luger / 357 SIG / 40 S&W
The P227 RX Full-Size in 45 Auto
Smith & Wesson’s Pro Series C.O.R.E. (Competition Optics Ready Equipment) line of M&P pistols includes the M&P40 and M&P40L—both chambered in .40 S&W and the latter with a longer slide—as well as the M&P9 and M&P9L chambered in 9mm.
All four models have slides milled to accept one of six mini reflex sights, including the Trijicon RMR, Leupold DeltaPoint, JPoint, Docter, C-More STS or Insight MRDS.
Like all the newly introduced guns from Sig Sauer and Robar, the C.O.R.E. pistols have iron sights with higher bases than normal so that the sights can be seen and used through the window of the reflex sight in an emergency.
I saw via ShotShow 2018 that Walther came out with their PPS M2 with the Shield RMSC Red Dot.
I see manufacturers testing the Red Dot waters if you will and depending on how the sales of their Red Dot mounted or Red Dot ready pistols, will tell them how much further to head into the waters!
For Sig it's easy, they have their Romeo 1 and Walther partnered with Shield and their RMSC Red Dot.
Some manufacturers can offer a full Red Dot package.
But for Glock & S&W etc. whose Red Dot do they put on their guns?
They don't know so they opt out to let US decide which Red Dot to use.
However that is not very advantageous to US pricing wise.
With Glock & S&W's CORE We have to pay retail for both the gun and Red Dot, rather than a discounted pricing from say Walther that has a MSRP of less than $700.00 for their PPS M2 and Shield RMSC.
Their partnering with Shield & Sig's Romeo 1 saves us money due to their package pricing.
The Red Dot phenom is building...It will get better with time.
Mackie244 / Bud
Last edited:
rpenmanparker
New member
^^^^^
Yes, and besides the models called out as compatible with the S&W CORE line, it is likely that several others, more economical ones, will also work depending upon the dimensions of the slide cut out. I’m pretty sure the Burris Fastifire 3 would fit and perhaps the Sightmark Mini Pro Spec. The screw holes for both are right, but the base of the Sightmark may be a smidgen too long.
Yes, and besides the models called out as compatible with the S&W CORE line, it is likely that several others, more economical ones, will also work depending upon the dimensions of the slide cut out. I’m pretty sure the Burris Fastifire 3 would fit and perhaps the Sightmark Mini Pro Spec. The screw holes for both are right, but the base of the Sightmark may be a smidgen too long.