Why are HK P7s $1k+???
- Thread starter Brian Busch
- Start date
Peter M. Eick
New member
Worth a grand??? Sure, no problem.
The P7 is a finely machined piece of metal that I am very pleased to own. The fitting between the frame and slide is nearly as tight as my Baers. The heft, the feel, the size all factor in.
BUT!!!!
The real reason I like the P7 is unlike any other gun I own that costs less then a grand, when I try, I can chew up the 10 ring of a 15 or 20 yard target all day long. I can be uncannily accurate with the P7 and good reloads. The P7 makes me look like a "skilled" shooter and for me that is worth a $1000.
Now the downside that gets mentioned it gets hot after a while. My solution buy 3. Have two cooling while one is shooting and you never have a problem!
The P7 is a finely machined piece of metal that I am very pleased to own. The fitting between the frame and slide is nearly as tight as my Baers. The heft, the feel, the size all factor in.
BUT!!!!
The real reason I like the P7 is unlike any other gun I own that costs less then a grand, when I try, I can chew up the 10 ring of a 15 or 20 yard target all day long. I can be uncannily accurate with the P7 and good reloads. The P7 makes me look like a "skilled" shooter and for me that is worth a $1000.
Now the downside that gets mentioned it gets hot after a while. My solution buy 3. Have two cooling while one is shooting and you never have a problem!
don't shoot it's me
New member
All this P7 talk is making me homesick...it's sitting there right now in an unopened fedex box from Ford's hard chroming, signed for by a neighbor. It's going to feel like Christmas all over again when I get home...
Brian Busch
New member
I must have worded this incorrectly.
The HK P7 is an excellent handgun. The design and performance of which is right up there with the best.
That said, in the grand scheme of things, it is a fairly insignificant thing to manufacture. HK is a pretty big company. Not like S&W or Kimber or even Colt. We're talking FN, Bofors big. Manufacturing the P7 on CNC equipment probably cost HK what, $100 tops?
What made me think that these $1000 factory pistols are overpriced was this. Yesterday I went to a hobby shop with my father to buy some paint for his RC sailboat (pretty neat to). There was a bunch of RC stuff, including some gasoline engines for them. Well, I'm looking at this little tiny 4-stroke engine thinking, this thing got 10 times the parts and 10 times the machine time any handgun would require, yet it costs half the price of a P7. And that got me thinking of other things that would require a similar amount of cost to make as the P7. Really got me thinking.
Dont even get me started on Glocks
The HK P7 is an excellent handgun. The design and performance of which is right up there with the best.
That said, in the grand scheme of things, it is a fairly insignificant thing to manufacture. HK is a pretty big company. Not like S&W or Kimber or even Colt. We're talking FN, Bofors big. Manufacturing the P7 on CNC equipment probably cost HK what, $100 tops?
What made me think that these $1000 factory pistols are overpriced was this. Yesterday I went to a hobby shop with my father to buy some paint for his RC sailboat (pretty neat to). There was a bunch of RC stuff, including some gasoline engines for them. Well, I'm looking at this little tiny 4-stroke engine thinking, this thing got 10 times the parts and 10 times the machine time any handgun would require, yet it costs half the price of a P7. And that got me thinking of other things that would require a similar amount of cost to make as the P7. Really got me thinking.
Dont even get me started on Glocks
well... it's WORTH whatever the buyer is willing to pay for it. You might have paid $300 for your gun, but it's only WORTH what someone is willing to pay for it at the time you're selling it. If you're unwilling to sell at any price, it's priceless. If you no one would ever buy your gun, it's worth nothing.
You can get them for less than $1000 if you look around... $1000 is a good price for a NIB P7M8, or P7, but you CAN get them cheaper.
Manufacture is only one part of the equation. Manufacture of the P7 is expensive: high grades steel is difficult to machine, that adds to cost. The gas piston is VERY expensive to manufacture because the tolerances are tighter than some board member's wallets. Tight tolerances cost money. Lots. P7's commonly out shoot custom 1911's, that cost $1500. Shipping is another expense, someone else already mentioned Germany's Socialistic labor system.
The short answer:
Cause people will pay $1000+ Though I refuse to pay over 1300 unless it has a LOT of high cap mags (P7M13).
For a P7M8, or P7, about $1000 is good. For a P7M13 $1200-1300 NIB, 2 mags.
If you sold your Glock for $1,000,000 it was worth $1,000,000.
-Morgan, Capitalist.
You can get them for less than $1000 if you look around... $1000 is a good price for a NIB P7M8, or P7, but you CAN get them cheaper.
Manufacture is only one part of the equation. Manufacture of the P7 is expensive: high grades steel is difficult to machine, that adds to cost. The gas piston is VERY expensive to manufacture because the tolerances are tighter than some board member's wallets. Tight tolerances cost money. Lots. P7's commonly out shoot custom 1911's, that cost $1500. Shipping is another expense, someone else already mentioned Germany's Socialistic labor system.
The short answer:
Cause people will pay $1000+ Though I refuse to pay over 1300 unless it has a LOT of high cap mags (P7M13).
For a P7M8, or P7, about $1000 is good. For a P7M13 $1200-1300 NIB, 2 mags.
If you sold your Glock for $1,000,000 it was worth $1,000,000.
-Morgan, Capitalist.
Sam Norton
New member
Brian
A couple comments
1 The P7 is the only pistol I know of that has a case hardened frame, slide, etc., You will never see a P7 that has been checkered or stiped. Its harder than there tools
2. Have you ever seen a P7 with the slide and grip panels off. There is a lot of parts all working together.
3. When most experienced shooters list the 5 most accurate production pistols the P7 is almost always one of the 5. It is also on most list of the 5 gun you can shoot the most rounds through before they are considered worn out.
4. I see a large number of people shoot action pistol type courses. I do see other guns that shoot in the same league with the P7. Glock 34, CZ75 SA. Custom Colt race guns, and others, but not one of the guns is anywhere near as compact as the P7.
5. The saftey is worth $200 To me. All you have to do to make it safe is let go of the grip and throw it in your pocket. Yet it still has the same nice trigger every shot you make.
These are the reason why it cost so much and is worth it to me.
Best Regards
Sam
A couple comments
1 The P7 is the only pistol I know of that has a case hardened frame, slide, etc., You will never see a P7 that has been checkered or stiped. Its harder than there tools
2. Have you ever seen a P7 with the slide and grip panels off. There is a lot of parts all working together.
3. When most experienced shooters list the 5 most accurate production pistols the P7 is almost always one of the 5. It is also on most list of the 5 gun you can shoot the most rounds through before they are considered worn out.
4. I see a large number of people shoot action pistol type courses. I do see other guns that shoot in the same league with the P7. Glock 34, CZ75 SA. Custom Colt race guns, and others, but not one of the guns is anywhere near as compact as the P7.
5. The saftey is worth $200 To me. All you have to do to make it safe is let go of the grip and throw it in your pocket. Yet it still has the same nice trigger every shot you make.
These are the reason why it cost so much and is worth it to me.
Best Regards
Sam
The P7 FAQ---
(one thing not listed is that the drop safety catch spring can break with repeated dry-firing with or without a snap cap)
Thkx to Greg Bell for the following:
PRO
1. Squeeze cocking. IMHO the safest gun for daily carry. The gun goes from perfectly safe to perfectly deadly in a split second. If you drop it you may have a heart attack because it might get scratched but you can rest assured it won't go off. This gun is incredibly fast.
2. Trigger pull. Thanks to the squeeze cocking system the gun is safely equipped with an excellent single action trigger pull. I've had die-hard partisans of every type of gun praise my P7's trigger.
3. Compact. Although it has full-size controls (no pinky hang), the gun is sized like a compact approaching a subcompact. It is much thinner than almost any handgun.(1.1-1.2 inches).
4. Full-size barrel. Despite this gun's compact size it has a full 4-inch barrel.
5. Fixed-barrel. This gun lacks the tilting barrel assembly of most other full-sized guns. This lends the gun exceptional accuracy. In combination with the aforementioned trigger, this barrel makes the P7 ultra-accurate.
6. Low recoil. This is debatable. I have always felt that this has the least recoil of any 9mm. Some disagree, most don't. This is likely result of the guns low bore/axis and gas system (although some say the gas system should have no effect).
7. Tough! This gun is CNC milled from a solid steel forging. The gun is so solid it could be used as a nasty set of brass knuckles in a pinch. Without picking one up it is hard to imagine how solid this little gun feels. When I had mine hardchromed the smith complained endlessly about how hard the P7 was to machine.
8. Excellent sight radius. Although the gun is short, HK maximized the sight radius by pushing the sights as far apart as practically possible.
9. Oddball manual of arms confuses bad guys and know it all buddies. There are many accounts of cops loosing their P7's to bad guys who were, in turn, unable to figure out the squeeze cocker. On the lighter side, a know it all at a local gunshop had just explained to all of his bad experiences with the P7 when I handed it to him only to watch him fumble around unable to cock it! Hilarious.
10. Chamber fluting allows the gun to function even if the extractor is broken. This feature really makes you think when you are trying to determine which gun you want to bet you life on (no offense, but this a much more serious advantage than being able to freeze the gun in a bucket of ice or whatever).
11. Easily childproofed. The P7's striker can be removed without tools (and without any other disassembly of the gun). The striker can be re-inserted into the gun in roughly 1 second. This could be a major consideration to those of us with small children and stupid friends.
12. Ambidextrous. With the exception of the slide catch and take down buttons, every model of the P7 is completely ambidextrous.
13. Ultra-fast magazine release. This has to be experienced to be understood. Rambo types complained about the PSP’s lack of rapid magazine release. HK, Germans that they are, decided to give them what they wanted—a magazine that ejects so fast and powerfully that they could be used as back-up projectiles in an emergency.
14. Ultra fast slide release. Simply squeeze the handle and the slide will be released.
15. 110 degree grip angle gives the gun natural pointability. 110 degree grip angle makes the gun point just like you finger.
16. Low profile slide. The P7’s low profile slide means that there is very little recoiling mass relative to the frame. This, along with the above mentioned 110-degree grip angle makes reacquiring targets a breeze with the P7.
Con
1. The gun gets uncomfortably hot after 60 (or so) rapid shots. More of a training problem than a "real world" consideration.
2. Finish lacks durability. Blued finish wears quickly and is very little protection against corrosion.
3. Very expensive. At over $1000, this gun is out of the range of many buyers.
4. The gun's design is such that it gets dirty quickly when shot.
5. The gun malfunctions when not maintained properly. While this is true of all guns, the P7 seems to be more sensitive than most modern autos. The solution is to keep the gas cylinder clean.
6. The P7's cocking lever emits a click when released. This is more of an issue with SEAL wannabes than real people. The theory is that the noise will alert the bad guys to your presence. Easily overcome with technique anyway (press in cocking latch at top of cocking lever while releasing your grip). With this technique the gun is almost silent and certainly quieter than any SIG or USP with decocking lever.
7. Low capacity. Except in now unavailable M13 (LEO only) and M10 (discontinued for ugliness), capacity is limited to 9 rounds (with one in chamber).
8. Grip screws come loose too easily. Use lock-tite.
9. Can't use lead bullets (see cleanliness issues above).
10. Slide lock button too small for some.
11. Magazine release on M8/M13 too sensitive to careless holstering (accidental magazine ejection). PSP model doesn't suffer from this (Euro-magazine catch).
12. During an emergency a user might accidentally squeeze the trigger while squeezing the cocking lever. I personally think this isn't a problem. The P7 was designed with a fair amount of take-up in the trigger so the gun is tolerant of some sloppiness. The moral of the story is to keep you finger off the trigger until you are ready to kill something. It should also be noted that your trigger finger is relatively independent of your other fingers. I can't remember the physiological term, but the other three fingers usually act in unison while the index finger is only partially connected. Still, in an emergency anything is possible--practice proper form with all firearms!
13. For some, seriously ham-fisted users, the gun might be accidentally disassembled if the take down button is inadvertently pressed while the slide is being racked. This is extremely unlikely, however, it can be done with practice.
14. Disassembly not for mere mortals. A "detail strip"
can involve a lot of head/heart ache. The gun has a fair number of parts but the real problem is the gun's unorthodox design [Expert reassembly tip, use grease to hold in the mag release spring--otherwise you will go mad trying to hold everything together while attempting to drive in the assembly pin]. An armorer at HK told me that they regularly have to reassemble guns for owners who let curiosity get the better of them. Fortunately, there is really no reason to strip it down beyond a "field strip." Just spray in some gun oil and wipe.
15. Possible difficulty depressing cocking lever with weak or injured hands. My father has weakness in his right hand related to a stroke he had a few years ago. For a while he was unable to cock my M8. On the other hand, once the lever is squeezed it only takes about a pound and a half to keep it cocked.
GHB
(one thing not listed is that the drop safety catch spring can break with repeated dry-firing with or without a snap cap)
Thkx to Greg Bell for the following:
PRO
1. Squeeze cocking. IMHO the safest gun for daily carry. The gun goes from perfectly safe to perfectly deadly in a split second. If you drop it you may have a heart attack because it might get scratched but you can rest assured it won't go off. This gun is incredibly fast.
2. Trigger pull. Thanks to the squeeze cocking system the gun is safely equipped with an excellent single action trigger pull. I've had die-hard partisans of every type of gun praise my P7's trigger.
3. Compact. Although it has full-size controls (no pinky hang), the gun is sized like a compact approaching a subcompact. It is much thinner than almost any handgun.(1.1-1.2 inches).
4. Full-size barrel. Despite this gun's compact size it has a full 4-inch barrel.
5. Fixed-barrel. This gun lacks the tilting barrel assembly of most other full-sized guns. This lends the gun exceptional accuracy. In combination with the aforementioned trigger, this barrel makes the P7 ultra-accurate.
6. Low recoil. This is debatable. I have always felt that this has the least recoil of any 9mm. Some disagree, most don't. This is likely result of the guns low bore/axis and gas system (although some say the gas system should have no effect).
7. Tough! This gun is CNC milled from a solid steel forging. The gun is so solid it could be used as a nasty set of brass knuckles in a pinch. Without picking one up it is hard to imagine how solid this little gun feels. When I had mine hardchromed the smith complained endlessly about how hard the P7 was to machine.
8. Excellent sight radius. Although the gun is short, HK maximized the sight radius by pushing the sights as far apart as practically possible.
9. Oddball manual of arms confuses bad guys and know it all buddies. There are many accounts of cops loosing their P7's to bad guys who were, in turn, unable to figure out the squeeze cocker. On the lighter side, a know it all at a local gunshop had just explained to all of his bad experiences with the P7 when I handed it to him only to watch him fumble around unable to cock it! Hilarious.
10. Chamber fluting allows the gun to function even if the extractor is broken. This feature really makes you think when you are trying to determine which gun you want to bet you life on (no offense, but this a much more serious advantage than being able to freeze the gun in a bucket of ice or whatever).
11. Easily childproofed. The P7's striker can be removed without tools (and without any other disassembly of the gun). The striker can be re-inserted into the gun in roughly 1 second. This could be a major consideration to those of us with small children and stupid friends.
12. Ambidextrous. With the exception of the slide catch and take down buttons, every model of the P7 is completely ambidextrous.
13. Ultra-fast magazine release. This has to be experienced to be understood. Rambo types complained about the PSP’s lack of rapid magazine release. HK, Germans that they are, decided to give them what they wanted—a magazine that ejects so fast and powerfully that they could be used as back-up projectiles in an emergency.
14. Ultra fast slide release. Simply squeeze the handle and the slide will be released.
15. 110 degree grip angle gives the gun natural pointability. 110 degree grip angle makes the gun point just like you finger.
16. Low profile slide. The P7’s low profile slide means that there is very little recoiling mass relative to the frame. This, along with the above mentioned 110-degree grip angle makes reacquiring targets a breeze with the P7.
Con
1. The gun gets uncomfortably hot after 60 (or so) rapid shots. More of a training problem than a "real world" consideration.
2. Finish lacks durability. Blued finish wears quickly and is very little protection against corrosion.
3. Very expensive. At over $1000, this gun is out of the range of many buyers.
4. The gun's design is such that it gets dirty quickly when shot.
5. The gun malfunctions when not maintained properly. While this is true of all guns, the P7 seems to be more sensitive than most modern autos. The solution is to keep the gas cylinder clean.
6. The P7's cocking lever emits a click when released. This is more of an issue with SEAL wannabes than real people. The theory is that the noise will alert the bad guys to your presence. Easily overcome with technique anyway (press in cocking latch at top of cocking lever while releasing your grip). With this technique the gun is almost silent and certainly quieter than any SIG or USP with decocking lever.
7. Low capacity. Except in now unavailable M13 (LEO only) and M10 (discontinued for ugliness), capacity is limited to 9 rounds (with one in chamber).
8. Grip screws come loose too easily. Use lock-tite.
9. Can't use lead bullets (see cleanliness issues above).
10. Slide lock button too small for some.
11. Magazine release on M8/M13 too sensitive to careless holstering (accidental magazine ejection). PSP model doesn't suffer from this (Euro-magazine catch).
12. During an emergency a user might accidentally squeeze the trigger while squeezing the cocking lever. I personally think this isn't a problem. The P7 was designed with a fair amount of take-up in the trigger so the gun is tolerant of some sloppiness. The moral of the story is to keep you finger off the trigger until you are ready to kill something. It should also be noted that your trigger finger is relatively independent of your other fingers. I can't remember the physiological term, but the other three fingers usually act in unison while the index finger is only partially connected. Still, in an emergency anything is possible--practice proper form with all firearms!
13. For some, seriously ham-fisted users, the gun might be accidentally disassembled if the take down button is inadvertently pressed while the slide is being racked. This is extremely unlikely, however, it can be done with practice.
14. Disassembly not for mere mortals. A "detail strip"
can involve a lot of head/heart ache. The gun has a fair number of parts but the real problem is the gun's unorthodox design [Expert reassembly tip, use grease to hold in the mag release spring--otherwise you will go mad trying to hold everything together while attempting to drive in the assembly pin]. An armorer at HK told me that they regularly have to reassemble guns for owners who let curiosity get the better of them. Fortunately, there is really no reason to strip it down beyond a "field strip." Just spray in some gun oil and wipe.
15. Possible difficulty depressing cocking lever with weak or injured hands. My father has weakness in his right hand related to a stroke he had a few years ago. For a while he was unable to cock my M8. On the other hand, once the lever is squeezed it only takes about a pound and a half to keep it cocked.
GHB
I don't know what Les Baers and other $1,500 custom pistols some of you guys are comparing to the P7, but to say that the P7 is almost as tightly fit and just as if not more accurate is a little hard to swallow. I've owned a P7M8 and shot others, and there is nothing exceptional about them. Unique pistol? Totally. Genious design? Absolutely.
Does it really shoot any better than any other quality built semi auto? (i.e. CZ75, USP, Sig Sauer, etc) NOPE. IMO.
Is it worth $1,000? Yes, if you like the pistol and are willing to pay for it.
Does it really shoot any better than any other quality built semi auto? (i.e. CZ75, USP, Sig Sauer, etc) NOPE. IMO.
Is it worth $1,000? Yes, if you like the pistol and are willing to pay for it.
hksigwalther
New member
One thing that you also have to understand about HK is that during the development and early production of the P7, HK not only made their own guns but they also manufactured the machinery to make those guns. Not only was there time invested in the design of the firearm but also in the production machinery and process. It was not a simple buy off the shelf CNC machine and program the computer, they actually manufactured them (the machines) themselves. That money, as in all manufacturing processes gun or non-gun, had to be recouped. => High priced P7s. After the investment was paid back over a few years it would be not very bright for any company to suddenly drop the price a few hundered dollars per piece with the same level of output. If the market was able to handle the initial high price and low output, then leave it there. Only means more money for the company.
Brian Busch
New member
HK had to design and make the tooling, not the tool. No manufacturer builds there own special mills, lathes, etc. to produce a product, unless it is very specialized (like the chunnel drills, or the space shuttle) and I seriously doubt the P7 requires tooling that specialized.
don't shoot it's me
New member
One thing all you guys are missing is gun retention. You're much more likely to fight harder over losing a 1000 gun than over some lesser priced piece of plastic.....Also, if you wear jeans and are not into flashy jewelery, how will a woman know if you are "money". So I would have to say besides quality and ergonomics, for me its a great duty/booty weapon.
Brian Busch
New member
"So I would have to say besides quality and ergonomics, for me its a great duty/booty weapon"
ROFLOL
ROFLOL
Hk P7s are made of H13 steel, the highest and most expensive instrumental steel. This way comventional tools will not machine it well, since they are made of the same material.
Have you notices that while finish on P7 werars off, there is never a nick or a dent on the pistol?
The only thing I resent about P7 is that the breach is not a single piece of metal with a slide, but actually separate part that is welded in.
P7 has been my daily pistol for few years now.
Have you notices that while finish on P7 werars off, there is never a nick or a dent on the pistol?
The only thing I resent about P7 is that the breach is not a single piece of metal with a slide, but actually separate part that is welded in.
P7 has been my daily pistol for few years now.
Brian Busch
New member
H13 is high-temperature tool steel, used for forging/moulding dies . I'm not sure what you mean by "highest". It isn't very hard at all, rather soft really, if I recall its around Rc 45-50, but it is very dense and tough, resists cracking from impact and heat. It would be an extreamly poor choice steel to make things like end mills, cutting heads and such, and tooling shouldn't have a problem with it at all. It's not expensive either.
Like Brian said, H13 is used to make dies and similar stuff, and can be hardened to 53 HRc max, 45 being the average. Not really expensive, and the term "highest" that is used by Mr. Octagon is beyond my understanding too, despite my 20 years in mechanical engineering. BTW, in modern production most of the cutting tools being used are indexable carbide tools. Also, like Brian said,
H13 is not HSS.
Question to Octagon:
How do you know that P7 is made from H13?
Drawings are not publically available, only people who work for HK
(or just about any company) or HK vendors/suppliers can see them.
H13 is not HSS.
Question to Octagon:
How do you know that P7 is made from H13?
Drawings are not publically available, only people who work for HK
(or just about any company) or HK vendors/suppliers can see them.