Why are HK P7s $1k+???

[Brian Busch]

Can someone please tell me why an HK P7M* costs over a grand? It's not like they are made of some super high-tech material; or hand made custom jobs. They are factory handguns, and nothing really extraordinary from a quality standpoint. Why so much? At first I thought they were just rare; that maybe HK didn't import them to the US. But they are listed on the HK-USA website, so they must be importing them, right?

 

[Will Beararms]

Becuase they can get it.

 

[RobCon]

To some extent, Will is right. I bought my first P7 in the 1980s. It was $469. My second P7, an M8 was 800+ and the M13 was over a grand. I also suspect the duty our wonderful government places on firearm imports from Germany adds greatly to the cost, so price-gouging may be only one part of the problem. I think they are superior pistols right out of the box. Best, Rob

 

[don't shoot it's me]

Actuallly from a a quality standpoint, they are quite extraordinary..

 

[Brian Busch]

Actuallly from a a quality standpoint, they are quite extraordinary..

I beg to differ. A neat design, yes, but it's still a simple blowback single-stack 9mm, and from a quality standpoint (fit, finish, accuracy) they are no better than a SIG210 or Walther P88.

 

[don't shoot it's me]

Calling it a simple blowback, you obviously don't know much about this weapon...it is anything but simple...perhaps you should read up on it and pay particular attention to the gas sytem....

 

[MPower]

I agree, there is nothing simple about the gas retard system. Also to call it unexceptional in comparison to a $2000 Sig 210 doesn't make too much sense. I would fully expect the machining of the 210 to be of superior quality (and it is). I bought my refurb P7 for $699 and have seen them as low as $599 at the peak of the refurb "glut". I spent $140 hard chroming it and $90 on nite sites and I feel it was an exceptional value.

 

[hksigwalther]

"...they are no better than a SIG210 or Walther P88."

Both of which are at or well above $1K.

 

[hksigwalther]

I think the key is : High Demand (due mainly to word of mouth and letter of internet), Low Output.

 

[Brian Busch]

"Both of which are at or well above $1K."

And both of which have been discontinued for some time, so the prices are driven by their collector value.

And "don't shoot it's me", I am well versed in the P7. And yes, it is simple. Most good systems ARE simple.

 

[jtduncan]

All right. That's it.

Time to open a can of whoop PASS!

Have you ever seen a P7 up close?

Held one?

Shot one several times?

I didn't think so. Armchair quarterback!

It expensive for several reasons.

1. HK uses the highest grade of steel available. P7s are heavy for that reason.

2. HK makes very limited runs of P7s for the US market since 90 percent of the agencies can't aford to spend $800 a gun per street cop. The Seattle Port Authority police force all carry P7M8s and the SWAT team gets P7M13s. Its just too expensive for poorly funded agencies. But the limited runs cause a scarcity with drives the price high. And HK doesn't want the P7s to compete with the USP line. Thus the price point.

3. The P7 is bar none, the most accurate combat 9mm ever made with a 4" barrel. The Sig P210 is only for duty carry and is almost a target gun. It's huge and not concealable.

Of the hundreds of police trade in refubs that people were snapping up about a year ago, how many of those P7s made it back to the used gun counter. I haven't seen any around Seattle.

The other reasons why the P7s are pricey is also due to its internal design is unique. It is NOT a simple blowback design like on a PPK, AR-15 rifle, or a Bersa. It has a gas-retarded recoil piston system that absorbs recoil.

It also has a sweet single action trigger. No action job needed here.

If you pop open the grip panels on a P7 and any 1911, glock, Sig, or HK USP, you'll see that it was built like a Swiss Watch not a 36 part Glock or a 86 part 1911.

And there is nothing to modify on the P7 except for getting a hard chromed finish. HK still hasn't got that right.

Its manual of arms is a challenge to use instinctively so you need to train with it regularly. But with its squeezecocker activated slide release, you can really zip through mag reloads while others fumble around.

It is the fastest gun onto target I've ever seen or shot!

And if you care, there is a growing community of P7 enthusiasts numbering a good 500 + over on Park Cities tactical's website, HKPro, and so on.

Its not the rich boy's gun you think it is.

 

[Shake]

but it's still a simple blowback single-stack 9mm

Ouch!

Shake

 

[hksigwalther]

"And both of which have been discontinued for some time, so the prices are driven by their collector value. "

Even before their discontinuation (and the 210s possible reccontinuation), they still commanded very high prices. At or above the same level of the P7. My P88 bought in very early '90s was $900 at a gun show. The 210s were going for well above $1200 then also, at least in my neighborhood.

 

[Brian Busch]

jtduncan, I don't understand why you feel a personal attack is needed. Perhaps you are a little emotional?

Anyway, while I have never owned one, I have shot P7s several times. And while I'm no expert as you appear to be, I was under the impression that the P7 gas system retards the movement of the recoiling slide during firing and eliminates the need for a conventional locking mechanism, thus it is a BLOWBACK design. I never said the gun wasn't good, or the design was bad. I said it ain't worth a grand+. No matter WHAT you say, its a factory production handgun with a fit and finish reflective of that.

I think the supply/demand guys have it right here, that HK just doesn't import many so the price is high. Makes sense I suppose.

PS:

"1. HK uses the highest grade of steel available. P7s are heavy for that reason."

Please go into detail here if you would. Which "high-grade steel" would that be, 1080, 1541, 4140, S1, H13, etc? What makes you think "high-grade steel" is heavier than "low-grade" steel?

 

[denfoote]

I would love to have a P7, but it's to rich for my blood. Guess I'll just have to stick with my P5.

 

[jtduncan]

I'm just having fun.

No real issue.

Read between the lines.

And I never mentioned your name, it was to group in general.

Fallacies needed to be dispelled.

 

[SAWBONES]

The P7 action is a GAS-RETARDED blowback.
The only other non-HK combat pistols (both in 9mm, both now out of production) with this method of operation were the Steyr GB and the execrable Vektor from South Africa.

It allows the barrel to remain fixed, hence improves mechanical shooting precision in this manner. While the Steyr GB was a sound design, the pistol wasn't "size efficient", and was just too big, whereas the Vektor, while compact, was simply unreliable.

I've said so before; The H&K P7 (I prefer the P7M8) is the overall-best 9mm semiautomatic pistol extant. Is it "worth it"? I think so, as do many others. If you want less than the best, or if you want "value" in a 9mm sidearm, there are many viable choices, to be sure.

 

[Redlg155]

I agree, the HK is an excellent weapon and I intend on getting one someday.

I compare it to the seecamp pistols. They were scarce and still are relatively scarce, but collectors wanted a good gun and shooters saw the value and quality of the weapon. Limited numbers were produced, so the prices were kept high, not necessarily by the manufacturer, but by the distributers and private sellers.

I understand that Seecamp sold them for very reasonable prices provided you wanted to wait a couple of years for your pistol.

The "squeezecockers" will always have a loyal fanclub from people who enjoy a quality unique pistol. Could you get a weapon of good quality that does the same job for less?..of course, but then you pay a price to be "Unique".

Besides, you always have an admirer at any gun range you go to.

Good Shooting
RED

 

[hksigwalther]

Brian,

I think the argument over 'simple blowback' strikes a few pro-HKers (like me) as a bit of an oversimplification of a very ingenious design. (Personally I don't get all huffy about what you or anyone else calls the action. Just as long as you know how it works.)

To explain the HK aficionado's side, a 'simple blowback' is a gun with an action that is able to remain in battery long enough to let the pressure in the barrel to fall to safe levels without the need for some type of locking mechanism. Generally, this type of action is used for less powerful cartridges .380ACP and lower in handguns and guns (usually machineguns) with heavy bolts that are able to handle heavier cartridges like .45ACP.

The 'gas-retarded blowback' of the P7 uses the pressure of the cartridge as the powder burns to keep the barrel and slide locked together until the pressure drops. Certainly very different and more complicated to manufacture than a 'simple blowback'.

Whenever I talk firearms I do try to use correct terms. Certainly, I'm sure you calling the P7 a 'simple blowback' was a slight jest as you know it is gas-retarded (hahaha, that sounds funny). Unfortunately, a few people are very serious about such subjects. That's where correct terminology helps in keeping the flames to a minimum.

 

[CWL]

What jtduncan said.

I also have to add that the machining on the P7 is exceptional in order to get the tolerances & machining in a pistol correct.

Limited production runs are exactly that and it costs more to set-up and operate. If H&K made them in 100K lots, then the price would obviously drop.

You will need to understand the economics of German salary structure + taxes, which can add another 100% to teh price of an employee's wages.

Lastly, add overhead costs & management of small batch security shipments plus longer storage times.

Sure, they're out to learn a buck, but the Germans do take pride in their quality & craftsmanship.