Who carry's reloads for CCW?
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stellarpod
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Well I just don't know what to say to that... :barf:
UH1-D Rotorhead: Just because you haven't got the slightest clue about how and why people reload does not justify the "hillbilly" remark. There are many facets to this great past time. I guess I'm just a "hillbilly", proud of my ability to consistently produce loads that are more accurate than factory and which consistently go bang everytime.
Now, all you benchrest shooters go back to pickin' an grinnin', ya' hear?
Geezzz...
stellarpod
ohioleadslinger
New member
Hillbilly
I think the thread never intended to get to this flaming...At this juncture in this litigious society its just not a good idea to carry hand loads. Thank god we can reload for pleasure shooting and hunting and the Gun Grabbers haven't infringed there.
Godbless....
I think the thread never intended to get to this flaming...At this juncture in this litigious society its just not a good idea to carry hand loads. Thank god we can reload for pleasure shooting and hunting and the Gun Grabbers haven't infringed there.
Godbless....
UH1-D Rotorhead
Moderator
It depends on how one defines hillbilly...if you get offended, then I suggest a thicker skin lining...for me, re-loads are not what I want for my weapons. As tenuous as carry laws can be at times, I prefer to place the burden of proof on a manufacturer's load, as opposed to a "hillbilly" load. and THAT's my tres pesetas.
Do I hear Dueling Banjos in the background?
Do I hear Dueling Banjos in the background?
ohioleadslinger
New member
To each his own....
In 20 odd years and Lord knows how many rounds of Factory ammo. I have never had one failure to fire, never had a squib load, never had a case rupture. I reload for target and hunting. A paper target or game animal will never try and put me in jail or take what I have worked for all my life away.
I hope you will never have to be put to the judicial test for the sake of being able to say I crafted this ammo for my carry gun so I could be sure I could have 1 inch groups at 25 yds. or an extra 100 fps, or an extra 100 ft.lbs. of knockdown power. It just isn't worth it to me to take a chance.
Godbless and this ends the thread for me all.....
In 20 odd years and Lord knows how many rounds of Factory ammo. I have never had one failure to fire, never had a squib load, never had a case rupture. I reload for target and hunting. A paper target or game animal will never try and put me in jail or take what I have worked for all my life away.
I hope you will never have to be put to the judicial test for the sake of being able to say I crafted this ammo for my carry gun so I could be sure I could have 1 inch groups at 25 yds. or an extra 100 fps, or an extra 100 ft.lbs. of knockdown power. It just isn't worth it to me to take a chance.
Godbless and this ends the thread for me all.....
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I have nothing against the use of reloads for SD (I consider CCW to be a subset of such). And, I reload. However, I happen to have factory loaded defense ammo in all of my SD arms. I do have SD loaded reloads, but those are used for practice and are also what I stockpile for (gasp!) SHTF, figuring that in such a situation niceties like legal liability will be moot. If the situation is such that legal liability is an issue, then some sort of civil authority will be in existence, and if that is the case then it is no longer a SHTF situation and I'll not need to tap into my reloaded SD ammo stockpile -- my more meager supply of factory SD ammo will suffice.
I seem to recall reading in one of Ayoob's columns-and I read them regularly-that he advised against the use of relaods to avoid the "killer fiend" image, IIRC he suggests using what ever is issued to the loacl LEOs, should you have
to defend your choice in court, your attorney can argue you carried what the
local professionals use.
to defend your choice in court, your attorney can argue you carried what the
local professionals use.
stellarpod
New member
The right to bear arms implies an intent to hone and practice the skills of self reliance. All of us preach this very basic tenant every day. Most of us are not willing to compromise one inch where these rights are concerned. This is because we understand and extol the benefits of taking care of one's self, rather than depending on the state to protect us. I simply extend that trait to the manufacture of my own ammunition.
Frankly, I am surprised that so many of you stand firm where your decision to carry and defend are concerned, yet cower at the thought of having to defend one facet of your commitment in a hypothetical court case.
Personally, I see acquiescing to the mis-perceptions of the public where handloading is concerned as appeasement of the same. I personally am not willing to compromise my beliefs to this extent. I am proud of my commitment to the 2nd Amendment and of my ability to fend for myself - even where the manufacture of my ammo is concerned.
As stated previously, each of you have your own reasons for opting for factory ammo over handloaded. You are certainly entitled to this position. If you take the position because you are unable or uncomfortable with the concept and process of reloading I completely understand. To those who take the position based upon concerns about litigation, then I suggest that you take a look at the 2nd Amendment ground on which you stand, because in my opinion you have already compromised and it is eroding from beneath your feet.
stellarpod
Frankly, I am surprised that so many of you stand firm where your decision to carry and defend are concerned, yet cower at the thought of having to defend one facet of your commitment in a hypothetical court case.
Personally, I see acquiescing to the mis-perceptions of the public where handloading is concerned as appeasement of the same. I personally am not willing to compromise my beliefs to this extent. I am proud of my commitment to the 2nd Amendment and of my ability to fend for myself - even where the manufacture of my ammo is concerned.
As stated previously, each of you have your own reasons for opting for factory ammo over handloaded. You are certainly entitled to this position. If you take the position because you are unable or uncomfortable with the concept and process of reloading I completely understand. To those who take the position based upon concerns about litigation, then I suggest that you take a look at the 2nd Amendment ground on which you stand, because in my opinion you have already compromised and it is eroding from beneath your feet.
stellarpod
You need to understand something abuot those of us opposed to carrying reloaded ammo for self defense. Our support for the 2A is completely unrelated to our opposition to the use of relaods for defense.
This has nothing to do with "acquiescing to the mis-perceptions of the public". As already pointed out by Mr. Ayoob in the article on Myths that Can Hang You in last month's Combat Handguns one man is in jail BECAUSE of his reloads. It was not a SD shooting, but the basic fact of the case was the state and court refused to accept that the charge in the round used by his girlfriend to commit suicide was anything but the Federal 38 +P load that the brass was stamped as. It did not matter that he could provide identically loaded rounds for testing as far as the court was concerned the brasss said Federal 38 Special +P and that is therefor what it was. How did this hurt him, simple. Because the home loads were very light (made just for his girlfriend) they did not throw anywhere the powder residue that the original Fed +P rounds would. The lack of powder burns/residue on the victim did not match what a Fed 38 +P round would throw out so they argued the gun had to be further away than if it were held by the vicitim to commit suicide. The boyfriend, being the only other person there, was therefore decided to have held the gun and killed her from a distance of several feet away. He is in jail now.
You may have better quality handloads than premium defense ammo (I doubt it but hey, some people swear they do). You may have in your opinion better performing ammunition. You may think that carrying reloads some how asserts your dedication to the 2A.
If you are reloading your defense rounds though you DO NOT have a 3rd party company/factory completely unrelated to the shooting who can supply identical ammo and test data. You also do not have any credibility in the court that the other 10,000 rounds of home loaded ammunition you have on hand are loaded identical to the ones for which they have empty cases from a shooting. This means you cannot depend on the ballistics and residue patterns from YOUR hand loads to back up your story. In fact your story may be comlpetely contradicted by the performance of factory ammo in the same brass. You may never have the opportunity to argue this because the court can easily declare any statement from you regarding the differences between the factory ammo the prosecution alledges was used and your home loads is inadmissable. This has already happenned recently and there is no reason it can't happen to you.
Emotional perception issues of non-shooting juries and prosecutors aside the FACT that the court has historically NOT accepted that reloaded ammo was really reloaded is a huge liability to the person who uses handloads for CCW. The evidence at the scene can be used to completely contradict what is the real story and put you in jail.
This has nothing to do with the 2A and everything to do with coverring yout butt in court. If you are convicted exactly how then are you going to use your 2A rights?
If I'm not mistaken this was a murder trial. The defendant claimed the victim killed herself however the physical evidence indicated otherwise. To bolster his case he claimed the ammunition was a weak firing reload, which accounted for the lack of powder residue/burns on the victims hands. They did not believe him. I'm not sure why some do. Whether or not he killed her was what the trial was all about. There would have almost certainly been other factors involved.
To use this trial alone to paint with such a wide brush would be foolish. On the other hand, if you accept Ayoobs analysis and comparison to all cases involving reloads then all reloaders problems are over. Just load in once fired cases and keep your mouth shut.
And that is even more ridicules. It sounds like this was a murder trial where the defendant alleged the use of a reload as a defense and nobody believed it. It would also seem that any competent knowledgeable lab would be able to determine whether a case had been run thou a die and proceeded through a reloading process. Again, if not possible to determine a factory case had been reloaded then I would say this whole reloaded-factory ammunition debate is moot. This case is either a complete miscarriage of justice or maybe, just maybe the guy was actually guilty.
I hate to admit it but I'm basing this opinion on the same incredible lack of information everybody but those present at the trial has.
There was more to the case then Ayoobs articles pointed out. She was shot in the head several inches behind the ear and on the left side of the head, although she was right handed. The defendant claimed she wanted to make it look like he killed her. He claimed she had tried to commit suicide twice in the past by shooting herself. Why would he, knowing this, make ammunition she wouldn't be afraid to shoot, teach her how to use a firearm and leave the gun and ammunition in a place where she could get to them unsupervised? If she had shot herself, even with a low powered load there would have been some trace evidence of powder residue on her hand. There was also the question of the lack of tattooing or GSR on her head. If she had held a gun in her hand and put it up to her head there would have been evidence to support this, especially if she held it in the position she would have had to be in to shoot herself in the location of the enty point. This was the evidence that sent him to jail, and the fact that the rounds were light loads would have made no difference, the evidence should have been there maybe not as much but there should have been something.
The use of handloads did not send him to jail, it was all the other evidence that he could not answer or account for. What power level were the reloads at? .38 S&W, .38 short colt, .32 short, .25acp? These all leave evidence, if not they would be used by a lot of hitmen and all they would have to is claim the person committed suicide.
Everyone has their reasons for not wanting to carry reloads, but if not wanting to have the prosocuter accuse you of something is it, maybe CCW isn't a good idea for you. If he thinks you are guilty of something he will use everything he can think of to get a conviction. This is why there are expert witnesses, to argue the facts of his accusations. But if you are guilty the best experts in the world won't get you off, most of them won't even try, they are there to tell the truth about the facts the best they can. If they lie and get caught at it their expert days are over.
The use of handloads did not send him to jail, it was all the other evidence that he could not answer or account for. What power level were the reloads at? .38 S&W, .38 short colt, .32 short, .25acp? These all leave evidence, if not they would be used by a lot of hitmen and all they would have to is claim the person committed suicide.
Everyone has their reasons for not wanting to carry reloads, but if not wanting to have the prosocuter accuse you of something is it, maybe CCW isn't a good idea for you. If he thinks you are guilty of something he will use everything he can think of to get a conviction. This is why there are expert witnesses, to argue the facts of his accusations. But if you are guilty the best experts in the world won't get you off, most of them won't even try, they are there to tell the truth about the facts the best they can. If they lie and get caught at it their expert days are over.
stellarpod
New member
Well stated, Rimrod and WIN71.
Musketeer:
Citing half-truths and out-of-context aspects from a single court case, in which the individual was convicted based upon other more compelling and substantial evidence hardly constitutes overwhelming "historical" significance. It appears to me that the reload/handload aspect of that case was an indictment of how desperate the defendant's attorneys were to try to find a way out - nothing more. And the judge apparently treated the far-flung tactic as the farce it was, disallowing its admission. Seems that perhaps they deserved to lose that battle.
How about this: It is not my intention to continue this pissing match. You do as you please, as will I. Please don't feel any obligation to shed a tear on my behalf should I find myself the victim of a kangaroo court conviction over handloads.
I'll give you the last word.
stellarpod
Musketeer:
Citing half-truths and out-of-context aspects from a single court case, in which the individual was convicted based upon other more compelling and substantial evidence hardly constitutes overwhelming "historical" significance. It appears to me that the reload/handload aspect of that case was an indictment of how desperate the defendant's attorneys were to try to find a way out - nothing more. And the judge apparently treated the far-flung tactic as the farce it was, disallowing its admission. Seems that perhaps they deserved to lose that battle.
How about this: It is not my intention to continue this pissing match. You do as you please, as will I. Please don't feel any obligation to shed a tear on my behalf should I find myself the victim of a kangaroo court conviction over handloads.
I'll give you the last word.
stellarpod
I'm with you, Lurch. I keep thinking how that would play out in court... 'factory ammo wasn't deadly enough for this crazed psychopath', and painting images of someone concocting super-deadly ammo in their basement in the wee hours of the morning. BS, I know, but un-knowing people can be convinced of things like that- and that is likely who will be sitting on the jury. I have found high quality factory ammo to be 100% reliable, and most of it well tested with actual shootings under it's belt to study performance. Just my .02
100W_Warlock
New member
Me me mee!!!!
I carry reloads in my auto's as I have gotten them 100% reliable.
Remington GS 230gr bullets, CCI 300 primers, and R-P +P brass with 7.3gr of PowerPistol. Stout, but controllable and matches factory loads... at 1/3 the price
For revolver, I practice with Speer GD 158gr JHP reloads that match factory loads, but, keep factory in my 608SS4 since I have them on my moon clips already.
I carry reloads in my auto's as I have gotten them 100% reliable.
Remington GS 230gr bullets, CCI 300 primers, and R-P +P brass with 7.3gr of PowerPistol. Stout, but controllable and matches factory loads... at 1/3 the price
For revolver, I practice with Speer GD 158gr JHP reloads that match factory loads, but, keep factory in my 608SS4 since I have them on my moon clips already.
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