Which Rifle?

[amprecon]

I don't have a traditional hunting rifle at this time. I've had traditional hunting rifles in the past, all bolt-actions which have been just ok. But there's just some things I don't like about bolt actions I'll discuss later.

I would like it in a large enough caliber to use on moose or elk and be effective enough on the big brownies of Alaska if ever necessary, but I do not want a magnum caliber or the other high recoiling non-magnums such as the .375 Ruger or 9.2x62. So I've been shopping the different actions and calibers and even the broad selection of bolt actions. I really like the .35 Whelen and .358 Winchester and even considered the .338-06 and .338 Federal calibers but most rifles in those calibers are relegated to the used or custom market. The .375 Ruger and 9.2x62 have too much recoil.
I've found the .338-06, .338 Fed, .35 Whelen and .358 Win ammo more difficult to find and almost as expensive as magnum ammo, they seem to be more of niche calibers these days, so I find myself being funneled back to the venerable .30-06. There doesn't seem to be a rifle that isn't chambered in .30-06 and the ammo is available virtually everywhere, many think it is sufficient for most large game animals.

I've shy'd away from commercial grade semi-auto's as I can't fully trust them in austere conditions where regular and articulate cleaning might not be possible, so I am sticking with a manual action.

For a lever action I decided the Browning BLR which is currently offered in .358 win would make a nice quick action in a heavy caliber, but again the .30-06 model would be easier to find ammo for.

Then there's the Remington 7600, used one's are available in .35 Whelen if one is persistent, and again new one's are available in .30-06. I own an 870 and the 7600 really appeals to me, but I have read so many pro's and con's of the design I'm not sure I can completely trust it and it appears to be more complex of a design and harder to give a thorough cleaning.

The single shot Ruger No. 1 is available in .35 Whelen but not in .30-06. The idea of a single-shot rifle appeals to me, it's simpler, uses a longer barrel yet same overall length as other rifles, it's more robust and it seems more of a hunter's rifle as you have only the one shot to count on, but not a quick shooter if necessary.

Then we come to my least favorite, the bolt-action. The greatest appeal to me is their inherent accuracy and simplicity, their greatest detractors are the slow and awkward cycling and the blind or hinged magazine floor plates. I have owned Remington 700's and a Ruger M77, both of which have long bolt throw's to work the action as they only have two locking lugs. A short throw bolt might alleviate some of the awkwardness of the bolt-action as you don't have to swing the bolt as far up to release it and a detachable magazine would make loading and unloading a non-issue. I know a big point of contention for many bolt gunners is the push-feed vs. the controlled feed bolts, I'm indifferent regarding that argument, as I've owned both styles, I never had an issue with either bolt design.

For bolt-actions I've pretty much settled on .30-06 caliber and a few models that have a short throw bolt and a detachable magazine. Browning bolt-actions are contenders as well as the Sako 85 and the Winchester XPR, Savage doesn't appear to have the short throw bolt, but I was looking hard at them too as well as the CZ line-up.

The simplicity, accuracy and reliability of bolt-actions are probably their biggest selling points and it's hard to argue with that, so for my uses, what would most of you recommend?

BTW, whatever it is will wear a fixed 4x scope

 

[Wyosmith]

A short throw on a bolt is from a short cartridge and magazine. A 30-06 is not short. It is "standard length" not "short length".
So I think you need to do some evaluations here.

Every bolt fact on every action (bolt, lever, pump,auto) has to be able to come backwards enough to eject a loaded round. The only one that doesn't is a single shot, break action or falling block, rolling block etc...

 

[joe sixgun]

I voted for the 7600. BUT the pump is harder to cycle the action from some shooting positions. Still a solid option though.

 

[amprecon]

Hey Wyosmith, I'm not talking long action vs. short action, I get that, I'm talking about the upward throw of the bolt handle to release the bolt from it's recesses, the Remington's and Ruger I've owned had a 90 degree throw rather than say a 57 or 60 or 70 degree throw. It seems a shorter "throw" would make for less awkward working of the action as you don't have to turn the bolt so far up.

 

[VoodooMountain]

What about a Marlin 336 in 35 Remington or a savage 99 in 300 savage. Both light recoiling lever actions that can handle most any game.

A 44 mag or 45 colt lever could also work for close up work and would actually be preferred for large bear due to penetration.


My personal choice would be a Ruger 77 mkii in 30-06, 308, or 280. It's just going to be a better all a rounder but of course a blr in a comparable caliber would work just as well.

 

[FairWarning]

If you want something interesting and different, go 8mm Mauser, the German .30-06.

I have a WWII K98 (sporterized in Germany in the '50s) and a modern Remington 700 Classic in this fine and underappreciated caliber. You can also get some very nice set trigger Euro sporters based on K98s and outfitted with beautiful engraved or plain fine wood stocks. No polymer mumbo jumbo.

There are several excellent ammo choices out there now even without hand loading. The better ones are:

Nosler 180 gr Ballistic Tip or Laupa Naturalis - 2600+ fps
Nosler 200 gr Partition or Accubond - 2475 fps
Norma or Hornady 196 SP - 2500+ fps
S&B 196 gr SP - 2592 fps

I have some precious and ultra rare vintage Norma 165 Vulcan hollow points at 2855 fps, although they are practically museum pieces at this point. That weight is probably the lightest I'd use for 8mm if I reloaded anyway, as it loves 180-200 gr. I have seen an even more rare Barnes TTX 200 gr 8mm load at 2570 fps, that is a real Hammer of Thor!!

 

[waveslayer]

Sounds like you already have your answers... maybe you reconsider your Semiautomatic decisions and get the Nemo in 300 win mag. Reliable and reliable

My wife thinks I only have 3 guns

 

[Water-Man]

Sako Tikka T3. Various models and calibers to choose from.

http://www.tikka.fi/rifles

 

[Pathfinder45]

Maybe you should re-think that detachable magazine idea. I think they are over-rated. Something to get separated from the rifle and misplaced, maybe even stepped on and broken. You better have spares if you go that way. For a bolt action I voted for other, as in model 70 Winchester. I don't mind the bolt-lift angle at all. Caliber would be 30-'06 or 270 Winchester. For lever actions I choose not to have scopes, but good aperture sights are a nice improvement. The 1895 Winchester can be had in 30-'06. As a handloader, there are other calibers worth considering. Although 348 Winchester ammo is not likely to be found other than ordering it online, other calibers like 45-70 have achieved modest popularity. If you must have a readily scope-able 30-'06 lever-gun, you will probably be limited to the Browning. You'll figure something out that works for you.

 

[Wyosmith]

Amprecon, now I understand. You mean "short bolt lift"
Now it makes sense to me.

 

[jmr40]

If it will help ease your mind I've seen test results from 3 different sources that concluded that 30-06 loaded with quality bullets 200-220 gr actually out performed rounds like 35 Whelen, 338-06, 358, 444, 45-70, even 338 WM. Two of the tests were conducted in Alaska with bear defense in mind and the 3rd in Africa with the larger non dangerous game animals in mind. Three different sources testing the same theory concluded that there was nothing between 30-06 and 375 mag that performed better than 30-06. The 300 WM using the same bullets tied 30-06, but did no better. It's advantage is longer range work.

Rifles with shorter bolt lift are usually have more resistance to lifting the bolt which negates the shorter travel distance. They might give your fingers a little more room to prevent hitting the scope, but will not help you work the bolt faster. In fact I find them slower to operate since they have more resistance.

For 99% of hunters CRF vs PF is a non-issue. But that is because 99% of hunters never use their rifles in a situation where CRF is needed. If you ever hunt in harsh dirty conditions where keeping your rifle completely clean is near impossible CRF starts to really shine. It is like comparing the off road capabilities of a Ford Explorer to a military Hummer. If you never drive on anything but gravel roads the Explorer is probably every bit as capable. But put them in really harsh conditions and the Explorer will be left behind.

My trio of Winchesters. About as perfect all around rifles as you'll get. All are SS rifles with CRF and lightweight McMillan Edge stocks. From left to right in 300 WSM, 30-06, and 308. All weigh 71/4-7 1/2 lbs as pictured including optics and mounts.

 

[fourbore]

Tikka and Sako are going to give the short bolt lift and smooth operation.

Becasue you insist on a brown bear rifle you severely limited the choices that make any sense. At least to me, it would have to be a bolt action in 30-06 for the big bears. You painted your self into a corner.

The 35 whelen and 9.3 will have exact same recoil with the 9.3 having ammo more appropriate for the big bears. Pure opinion and not popular with the 35 fans. I would even favor the heavy 9.3 bullets for some of the other game listed. I suppose with 200 grain popular whelen load there is less recoil than the 270 grain (more/less) 9.3 loads.

Without the bears there are plenty of easy carry fast handling guns in choices like 308 or 7mm08. And the single shot would work, for a classy option. Kimber makes a light bolt. Kimber make a light 36-06 but that probably kicks as much as your typical heavy 9.3 which you dont want.

CZ makes a 9.3 kevlar or Win M70 in 375HH for big bears.

The older Remington Model 7 was a nice 7mm-08 and now the Kimber Adirondak looks appealing to me for the lower 48 gun. The 7mm is a nice step down in recoil.

 

[fourbore]

I like to add, those guns posted by JMR look just about perfect if you setup one light caliber and if ever needed later you could do one heavy.

I dont think you can get anything like those out of the box from Winchester today? The Adirondack is pretty similar and all set to go. I trust Winchester more than kimber, but no actual data or experience to back that up. Winchester now is the great, IMHO, Miruko and Kimber having had various owners and slips in the past. Having said that, if I had to replace my old model 7, I would try an Adirondack.

 

[Art Eatman]

For game including elk and moose, the old '06 will work as well as any other. Assuming skill at shot placement, a bolt-action does quite well.

Were I going to lay out the money for a big-bear hunt in Alaska, I'd buy something like a .375 H&H. I can always sell it after the hunt. But the cost of a new rifle is chump change compared to the rest of the $$$ needed.

 

[dgludwig]

For a "traditional" rifle, I'd look for a Savage Model 99 chambered in .358 Winchester. A great "timber" rifle for whitetails and black bear-and moose, elk and brown bear, for that matter. Deer don't travel very far when hit in the right place with a 200 grain Silvertip fired from my Savage "Brush Gun".

 

[T. O'Heir]

You really need look no further than any .27, and up, calibre. Think .308 or .30-06 with 165 grain bullets. Which rifle doesn't make much difference. Commercial hunting rifles are pretty much all the same.
Think in terms of what ammo is available in Wal-Mart. If they have it in one store, it'll very likely be in all of 'em.

 

[amprecon]

Lots of good replies and opinions, I know everyone has their personal biases and traits they prefer in a hunting rifle which all obviously work for them.

It seems the .30-06 is capable of doing the job on most N.A. game if your close enough and make good shots, even on the brownies and ammo is literally everywhere.

As much as I like the idea of the single shot in .35 Whelen, I think the ability for quick repeat shots is a requirement for me. I've never been a big fan of lever actions and bolts are slow and awkward, so I'm really leaning hard on a 7600 in .30-06, I think it'd complement my 870 nicely.

 

[jmr40]

bolts are slow and awkward

Only if you don't know how to shoot one. I got off 3 shots with my 308 in 2.27 seconds and I bobbled between shots 1 and 2. I've done it in 1.8 seconds, but don't have it on video. The lever action 30-30 was only 1/2 second faster for 3 shots.

For aimed shots where all 3 must hit a 9" paper plate my times are 3.5-4 seconds regardless of action type. It takes longer to get the sights back on target than to work the action.

As to being awkward the 7600's are nearly a pound heavier than a comparable bolt gun and not nearly as reliable. Pump shotguns are very reliable because they operate at much lower pressures. Shotguns are pointed, not aimed. Rifles operate at much higher pressures and pump rifles don't have the camming action to eject as reliably. Rifles are also aimed, not pointed. While faster when shooting off hand, pumps are the slowest to use from any supported position which should always be used unless there is no other option. There are reasons why pump rifles have never been popular.

Click on picture to watch video:

 

[johnwilliamson062]

If you can afford it, the Number one.
I'm not sure I'd take a 35 Whelen to hunt some things on your list. If I was holding one and found myself staring at a bear, I'd take the shot, but wouldn't take one by choice.

 

[chuckscap]

Seems like a BLR in 30-06 would fit your bill. Put some low Tallery QR steel rings and a Leupold 1.5-5x scope on it and I think you would have one hell of a sweet rifle.