Which O/U Single Trigger all-around Shotgun for hunting?

BigJimP

New member
There is nothing wrong mechanically in the 325, 425, 525 or 625 series.

I don't remember the amount of drop the 325 had vs the 425, etc - but as I recall they were all similar / and since they all have angled, or field combs - then even with an adj comb - you can't adjust the point of impact.

An adjustable comb on a parallel comb gun - lets you adjust the point of impact up or down. On an angled, or field comb, an adjustable comb doesn't change the angle relative to the rib - so to me, it has no purpose on an angled, or field comb stocked gun. On a parallel comb gun - if you shoot in a T shirt in the summer / or a heavy coat in the winter - even though that causes your face to move up or back on the comb maybe 3/4" or so - since it is parallel to the rib - then your sight picture does not change. So my sight picture on my gun stays the same year round.

On an angled, or field comb, gun - as you move up or back on the comb - and you level out the rib - it causes the gun's point of impact to move significantly up or down by seasons. As a result, with an angled comb gun - you have to get a "shooting outfit" that you can use in all seasons - so your head contacts the comb at exactly the right spot - so the gun hits where you look. Remember a 1/2" up or down at the end of the muzzle - might result in a shot being 3 or 4 feet high or low - at 35 yards - not what you want...

In my experience, parallel comb guns - will fit most everybody - and they're adjustable. Angled or field combs - are not.

Each of the series was discontinued - as the sucessor came out. I bought my 525 - when they were pretty new - in about 1998 ?? I think the 325 came out in early 90's , the 425 I think only lasted about 3 years - maybe 1994-1997. The 625 has been out about 2 years now.

If you're only going to buy one shotgun - I'd seriously recommend a gun with a parallel comb. As a pure Trap gun - I like the Browning XT with 32" barrels - at about 10 lbs. For an overall gun - hunting, sporting clays or skeet - I like the Browning XS Skeet with 30" barrels ( they also make a 28" ) - and that's personal preference. I find the XS Skeet model a very nimble gun - swings quickly - in a 12ga its about 8 1/2 lbs - so its quick, but not whippy like a 7 1/2 lb gun would be to me ( but I'm 6' 5" and 290 lbs ) so you should look at whatever fits you and what feels good with the balance point between your hands, etc. Trap is a game with less barrel movement - than hunting, sporting clays or skeet - so a 10lb gun is a little too clumsy to me in a faster game.

I am seeing a few of the XS Skeet used. There is also the XS Special - marketed by Browning as a sporting clays gun / but they tend to put plain wood on them / and a satin finish - not as attractive a gun as the XS Skeet in my opinion. Any big Browning dealer should have the XS Skeet in stock in 12 or 20ga with or without the adj comb option.
 

BigJimP

New member
Looking at the Browning web site - Citori lineup - they have all the models I'm suggesting / it might help before you go to a shop and see what suits you best.

A lot of gun shops - don't really have a good command of the different target guns from Browning - especially if they don't stock all the models. All shops sell a lot of angled or field comb guns - and most sales counter guys tend to think that is all there is / and a lot of the customers focus on the look of the wood and cost vs adjustability. They don't sell too many target guns in the $2,500 - $3,000 price range.

But if you have a relationship with a shop where some of the sales folks are clay target shooters - they should be able to walk you thru all of these models and options.
 

TheDingy

New member
I know a lot of people that shot a lot of different O/U's for something that is going to be a only gun I would do a good one and stay away from these cheap ones that I have seen recommended here. Don't look at price, but quality.

I would shortlist these.

Beretta - Any of the 68x series guns
Krieghoff - Any of their O/U's
Perazzi - Any of their O/U's

Browning while some may say they are good in a 12ga my friends have had nothing but trouble as they went up in rounds fired.

Also I would buy a 12ga, get a 20ga set of barrels or a set of Briley tubes in 20ga. Also get a lot of choke tubes for both 12ga and 20ga.

Lastly I would get the gun properly fitted to me by a professional this is the biggest step that I would do.
 

Maromero

Moderator
Krieghoff - Any of their O/U's
Perazzi - Any of their O/U's

Either one of these two. Beretta is one notch below in this category.
 

BigJimP

New member
I know a lot of guys that have 50,000 + shells thru Brownings with no trouble - regardless of gague / especially the XS Skeet or XT models - and while I don't really keep track - my XS Skeet models in 12, 20 are easily at 50,000 with no problems.

Personally, I think Beretta is also a decent gun - a little lighter in general - and maybe a little weaker in terms of the barrel to receiver connection. But I consider Beretta and Browning virtually equivalent in terms on a long term gun.

All gun mfg's have some issues from time to time - maybe I've been lucky on my Brownings / maybe I take better care of my guns than some ....
 

olddrum1

New member
Might I now ask what kind of clay's and what kind of hunting you will be doing with this shotgun? Can I assume that you have a smaller frame?
 

BigJimP

New member
TheDingy - you said:

"Browning while some may say they are good in a 12ga my friends have had nothing but trouble as they went up in rounds fired."

What specific kinds of problems did your friends say they had / with which specific models ?
 

BigJimP

New member
A couple of things:

Choke Tubes:

To make my guns versatile, I do carry a fishing tackle - 6 slot plastic box in my vest - with chokes. I carry 2 Skeet chokes, 2 Improved Cyclinder, 2 Modified, 1 Improved Modified and 1 Full / so 2 chokes are in the gun / 6 in the plastic box. I prefer extended chokes - Browning midas or diana grade are good chokes, Briley and others make good chokes.

Gun Fit:

In my experience having a pro fit your gun is a mistake. First of all, if you buy a gun with a parallel comb - you can adjust it yourself - and taking it to the pattern board, a couple hours of your time and a box of new shells is all you'll need. If you are prone to lose or gain weight ( I do ) - then a parallel adjustable comb gun can be adjusted from time to time as you gain or lose weight.

"Pros" come with all different levels of experience / too many of them are "wood butchers" - but some are really qualified to help you. In general, if you are looking for a "Pro" to help you - I would prefer a certified and credible shooting coach - someone like Bender/Shima, Bobby Fowler Jr, etc and it needs to be someone that shares your philosophy on technique ( like shooting sustained lead or whatever you want to do ) - and let your coach recommend a gunsmith to fit your gun. At some of the bigger tournaments in your area - there may be traveling gunsmiths, gun fitters - and some are great - but be really careful.

Not that you should believe me or anyone else in this forum either ....we're all anonymous / and it isn't like any of us has shot with you for 20 or 30 hours and knows what you truly need or don't need.

But gunfitting / and stock work in general is an art - and it will take some time and cost you some money if it is to be done right. There are a lot of good custom stockmakers out there - but I had a guy with a big reputation destroy the stocks on 2 of my O/U's a few years ago / and it still aggravates me. He paid to restock one of the 2 guns / the other one never really worked out ......it was a 6 month nightmare and every time I touched those 2 guns it aggravated me, so I sold them both - and it cost me at least $ 5,000 ( plus the aggravation ) when it was all said and done.

That's why I push people toward a factory installed adjustable comb in a parallel comb gun / for virtually 100% of their shotgunning - if they can afford it. Right now the Browning XS Skeet with adj comb lists for $ 3,139 - but I still says its a great value for an all around gun.
 

Para Bellum

New member
Thanks a lot BigJimP

I understand. Thanks a lot BigJimP, you saved me from buying an old non-adjustable gun standing around in the shop for quite some years.
So - now understanding the necessity of a parallel adjustable comp – I get more interested in the Cingergy models like this one:
Cynergy Euro Sporting Composite with Adjustable Comb:

013296l.jpg


Seems like a good choice, doesn't it?

To answer the other questions: I am 5’10.5 (179cm), 172# (78kg) and muscular (Kajaking, Martial Arts, Heavy Bag Training) and have particularily small hands.
The gun should be a one-fits-all shotgun. Primariy use will be skeet or similar for fun. Secondary use will be hunting fox, hare, rabbit, pheasant and duck.
 
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Shorthair

New member
I'd head off to the gun store, and have your gun clerk lay every one that you've researched and considered on the counter. Then, one by one, pick them up, mount them, get a feel for them, then pick the one that fits you best. Do this all in one sitting. Go through all of them, then by a process of elimination work your way through them until you settle on the one that feels like its alive in your hands and fits your face and shoulder.
We are about the same physically, though I have larger hands. I believe most commercial production shotguns are pretty much made for our build.
I had my mind set on a Ruger Red Label 20 until I actually picked one up. Felt like a dead stick. Settled on my Citori White Lightning after going through the above process. Good luck!
 

Para Bellum

New member
I'd head off to the gun store, and have your gun clerk lay every one that you've researched and considered on the counter. Then, one by one, pick them up, mount them, get a feel for them, then pick the one that fits you best. Do this all in one sitting. Go through all of them, then by a process of elimination work your way through them until you settle on the one that feels like its alive in your hands and fits your face and shoulder.
That's exactly what I did. Made me end up with a Browing Citori 425 with non-adjustable stock. Always fell into the right position. But I only hat a shirt on and there was nothing I could adjust on this Browing Citori 425 ...
 

BigJimP

New member
You're welcome.

Overall, I like the Cynergy design. One of my buddies shoots last years version of the gun you're looking at - he likes the look and feel of the synthetic / he's been very happy with it ( for about 9 months now ).

But, a couple of issues ( not bad, just so you know ...):

On the Cynergy model, the comb is adjustable up and down - but not left or right for " cast " - if that is an issue for you ( unless they have changed it on the newer models) - it would be a big problem. I shoot a neutral cast gun - so it would not be an issue for me / but some guys need a little bit of cast " on or off " from center. The adj combs on the wood stocked Citori lineup - are adjustable up and down and left and right ... I don't know if the wood stocked Cynergy is adjustable for cast or not ?

Cynergy recoil pad - you're pretty well stuck with the one that is on the Cynergy models. On the Citori wood stock guns - you can change the pads to get a different length of pull ( go thicker or thinner ). You can also get a pad with different profiles - toe in, a rocker style, flat ones, etc. - depends on what you like. I change the pads on all my guns when I buy them - but I stay with a Kick-EEZ version, a little thicker, of the same stock pads that come from Browning on the XS Skeet models. On my " Trap guns " I go to a little different system - with a Gra Coil recoil system. But I don't like the Gra Coil on my hunting, sporting clays or skeet guns.

On wood stock guns you can also go to a " Jones pad " butt plate / and I like that on my " Trap " guns - but honestly, I don't have it on my hunting, Skeet guns. The Jones butt plate allows you to put some cast in at the butt - where the butt plate has some adjustability up or down / or roll the gun to the left or right ...... I don't think you can put a Jones butt plate on a Cynergy / especially the synthetic models / so maybe that's a factor for you ( but if you're new to this stuff, just ignore it ..).

The jury is still out on the Cynergy barrel lockup system to the receiver. Cynergy has been around for about 4 - 5 years now - but I don't know of any serious Target Shooters - that went to the Cynergy - or anybody putting 10,000 shells a year thru one. The only guys I know that shoot them - are just casual shooters - maybe 2,500 shells a year / but I have not heard of one breaking down either. But, the Citroi lineup / barrel connection has been one of the strongest on the market for a long time. I don't know if we will say that about the Cynergy or not in 25 years ??? I've shot the Cynergy in a couple of different models - in 12 and 20ga - and I liked them.

The look of the Cynergy appeals to some / some think its ugly. Initially I thought it was a little ugly - but I admit, its grown on me.

Honestly, if I had a major fire at home / or somebody stole all of my shotguns - I'm not sure what I would do to replace all my Brownings but I would at least look at the Cynergy. I have quite a few shotguns ( and 10 Browning O/U's ... ) - and I like them all / they've held up for a long time / for many thousands of shells. My bet is the Cynergy will hold up long term as well / not withstanding the issues I've listed, if it will work for you dimensionally.
 

beetlefang

New member
I'm no pro...but my O/U's are a 687 and a 425 in 20 gauge.

Both are quality guns and very nice. The 687 has the smaller receiver.
 

Para Bellum

New member
still wonderin....

...hm, the 425 Citori in the shop just felt perfect. Always came into position naturally....
I'll go to the shop again and try em all again and check for adjustable combs....:confused:

....and then by them all...
 
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Para Bellum

New member
Just bought it, thanks so much, Folks!

Hi Folks!

I've just bought it. You should see the SMILE on my face :D:

It is a Browning Cynergy Composite Black Ice in 12/76
11710179173635.jpg


I got my hands on all guns on my shortlist (425, 525, GTS, Cynergy) again. I liked the Cynergy best because it is technically state of the art (Backboared, Steelshot, InvectorPlus Chokes etc...), but it didn't fit perfectly. So we just adjusted the Comb, up two levels and it was perfect. That's what I like so much about this gun: Whatever direction my training will take me, the gun can be adapted. There's three Comb inserts: Neutral, outward, inward, and all can be adjusted in height. Two recoil-pads, standard and short. And the looks, man what a beauty.

I want to thank you all, especially BigJimP for your expert's help and time. Without you I had bought a 425 with a wooden stock.

Take care and stay well!
PB
 

BigJimP

New member
You're welcome - and we look forward to a report in 7 or 8 weeks ....and some perfect 25's ..... I hope you have a lot of good days with it.
 

Waterengineer

New member
This has been one of the better threads in a while, IMHO. Several of TFL shotgun sages have offered good advice, as always.

The only thing I can add (or ask) relates to the 6XX sereis Beretta line and the Cynergy Browning line.

It is my opinion that if Browning were to tell the truth, even with all the "technological improvements" of the Cynergy line, the Cynergy line was designed to be a direct competitor with Beretta.

The smaller, more svelte receiver, the lower barrels, the physical weight and swing feel of the Cynergy are very similar to the 6XX series Berettas.

Another point that speaks to my argument regarding direct competition is how hard Browning markets the Cynergy in europe, and the UK more specifically.

Does anyone else feel this way about the marketing and feel of the two guns?
 

BigJimP

New member
I think you make a good point waterengineer.

I think FN Herstal - which owns and operates Browning/Wichester shotguns under their corporation now is trying to figure out how to take on the Beretta Holding company that operates and controls - Beretta, Benelli, Franchi, Stogeger, Uberti, etc.

As I recall - the Cynergy was designed while Browning was still independent - but at about the same time they bought Winchester. Then I think it was about 3 years ago that FN purchased Browning / Winchester. But I think with the FN money behind them now - the Browning people have introduced some new Cynergy models and some newer models in the Citori lineup - synthetic especially.

I think in general its fair to say there is an appeal, among a younger shooter especially, to look at the Beretta lineup vs a more traditional or heavier looking Browning. So I don't think there is any doubt that FN-Browning / Winchester are looking to take some of those customers from Beretta, Benelli etc.

I think its interesting in my family - that the Benelli super sport auto ( synthetic and flashy ) is really attractive to my grandsons and their buddies in high school. Its often the first gun they gravitate towards. I suspect, if I add a synthetic Cynergy down the road ( like ParaBellum's new gun) that it would be the same way with that gun. Maybe the same way, when I was a kid, I gravitated to Browning Citori's.

I think another interesting company to watch is Sig / Blazer shotguns ( in the $ 7,000 - $10,000 ) price range. They aren't really taking on Krieghoff or Kolar at this point / but I think they might be hurting Perazzi a little already / and picking off some of the Beretta or Browning higher end guns, especially anything out of the custom shop at Browning like the superposed.

But I think you're right ( even though I'm not a Beretta fan ).
 
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