what is the most accurate 1000 yard deer caliber

[rdavidsonjr]

Brian the video was very impressive on the 243. You make a very appealing case for the gun. Along with other research I have done on bullet BC for the 243 which is impressive but like I said I have always had doubts on long range killing ability. If the gun does that at 688 on a 400 -450 lb cow elk then a deer of any kind is no problem. Although that was a perfect angle for the shot. What is your opinion on a 900 lb bull or a quartering shot on a cow. How do you think it will perform on 300-500 boar hog at say 300-500. Also how does it stack up against the 260 on cost of reloading and barrel life. Another thing on your points #1 that is my mistake in not putting all of what I was talking about even though now the original point was not correct anyway. It was an opinion and I assumed everyone already knew I meant that the bore was above the trajectory line and in the 1st 300 yards it was at a fairly close to flat trajectory crossing above and below that line.I have bore sighted countless guns in my life and that is why the trajectory line on the scope is started about a inch below the bore. After reading what I wrote I see the short sight on my part the way I explained it. #2 was based on opinion of some observations on sniper rounds thanks for the correction. #3 Your explanation here may of cleared up questions which had formed a couple of incorrect opinions for myself and may answer a question for a problem my son is trying to figure out on the range now, just not sure. #4 It seems that I have read so many times about how the huge data compiled on the 308 was a added value to someone starting off in long range shooting by so many people many being long range competitors. That also couples with my son telling me that he has a lot more resources to aid him on the 308 in teaching Marines the most effective use of the caliber and he says he can teach long range elements effects such as wind so easily that anyone can quickly learn it. #5 point taken. #6 This was an opinion based on the fact that as he quoted for me match grade 175 gr bullets and availability of brass at very economical prices which he felt was an advantage for practice along with extensive barrel life. He also felt that a starter was relatively inexpensive in the Remington 700 varmint 308 and readily available. Also we got to talk a little more in depth about his tour in Iraq tonight. I want to correct another misunderstanding since he doesn't talk about it much. He was actually the designated marksman in a 5 man sniper recon team. HE was not the actual sniper but actually qualified on the weapons as an urban sniper an served as a backup if needed. I don't want to mislead anyone. He has been working the the 29 Palms range for the last 2 years every other day and worked and was in charge of training on the range for the 3 1/2 years before that everyday and received one of his naval achievement awards then for improving the scores and overall way the range ran. I definately have to look at the calibers around 243, and 6.5 some more and thanks for the help and respects by yourself and Pathfinder.

 

[rdavidsonjr]

Jimro

a. Projectile Stabilization

(1) Magnus Moment. As the projectile ends its contact with the lands and grooves of the barrel, the gas-tight seal that was behind the projectile is broken. The expanding gas behind the bullet exits along with the bullet, and is expelled around the bullet and bore. The bullet will not be stable when it exits the bore due to lack of constriction provided by the barrel and by the exiting gasses. The bullet will wobble in flight (precession) until gyroscopic action stabilizes it. This initial wobble is known as the Magnus Moment. It is the brief period in a bullets flight when it is not stabilized.

(2) Magnus Effect. Due to gyroscopic stabilization the bullet may not travel directly aligned with the path of flight. Instead, the bullet will rotate around its center of gravity. Because of the spin imparted by the rifling of the barrel the Magnus Effect will stabilize the bullet and cause it to point toward (about one degree off) the target. The Magnus Effect is a generation of a sidewise force on a spinning object by air pressure that exerts a force towards the axis of flight, stabilizing the bullet along its flight path

(3) Rifling Factor. The rifling twist rate becomes a factor now that the bullet is in flight. The bullet must be stabilized to have uniform drag. If the bullet is wobbling in flight, each individual round will have a different flight path and accuracy will be adversely affected.

(4) Precession and Yaw. Precession is a circular motion of the bullet’s center of gravity aligning with the projectile’s center of mass as the bullet is rotated and stabilized. Yaw is a back and forth wobbling of the round, and is essentially a two dimensional view of precession. Precession is present in any bullet’s flight; the degree and length are what makes a certain round more or less accurate than other rounds.

(5) Gyroscopic Stabilization. Gyroscopic stabilization is intended to limit these motions by matching bullets to a given twist rate. These deviations will generally be no greater than a few degrees. Video #1 shows precession and yaw.

You are correct I have a training video that shows what your saying. My son is grasping at straws to explain an anomaly and it has nothing to do with the prone position. My misunderstanding on parts though and I will correct that now. He explained in a little better detail tonight . He was in charge of training and running the range at 29 palms for 3 1/2 years everyday. He is still assisting with range training approximately 2-3 days a week now and for the last 2 years. He said that the groups at 100 the prone and 200 the sitting, kneeling and prone are within explainable results. It is 300 that is the question sitting and prone. compared to 500 prone. He is not talking scores he is talking groups. The groups at 300 are running 2-3 times the size of groups at 500 when comparing the prone positions. So apparently its not quite so simple. I'm sure he would welcome an answer or idea. I am really thinking your right after watching the video on 5.56 stability bet I not positive. He pulled that out as a possibility remembering it in his training after qualifying 5 soldiers this week. All 5 had the exact same problem that at least 90 % have and he can't make since of it. I'm no expert but I am curious. By the way thanks for the input.

 

[Bart B.]

USMC qualification with rifle:

For the shooters, they will first set up on the 200 yard line where they will fire 15 rounds in “slow fire” over a time period of 20 minutes. 5 rounds each in the sitting, kneeling and standing position. Then, they will fire 10 rounds of “rapid” fire in one minute, starting in the standing position, then dropping to the deck and assuming the sitting position before their first shot. Total points possible at the 200 yard line – 125 pts.

At the 300 yard line, they will fire 5 rounds in “slow fire” over a 5 minute time period from the sitting position. Then they will fire 10 rounds “rapid fire” in 1 minute – starting in the standing position, but dropping to the deck and assuming the prone position before their first shot. Total points possible at the 300 yard line – 75 points.

The recruits will then move back to the 500 yard line, and here they will fire 10 shots in “slow fire” over a period of 10 minutes from the prone position. Total points possible from the 500 yard line – 50 points.

The shooting conditions at 300 are less stable than those at 500. That's why groups at 300 are dimensionally larger. Only when the time period and shooting positions are the same for each range can group sizes at all ranges be compared.

 

[Jimro]

The groups at 300 are running 2-3 times the size of groups at 500 when comparing the prone positions. So apparently its not quite so simple. I'm sure he would welcome an answer or idea. I am really thinking your right after watching the video on 5.56 stability bet I not positive. He pulled that out as a possibility remembering it in his training after qualifying 5 soldiers this week. All 5 had the exact same problem that at least 90 % have and he can't make since of it. I'm no expert but I am curious. By the way thanks for the input.

Different targets, and 300 is rapid fire and 500 is slow fire.

One of the things to do is test the rifle and ammunition with an expert shooter on a scaled target at both ranges. The USMC "A" target would work.

Jimro

 

[rdavidsonjr]

Jimro that makes since to me but your other post on equal sight picture and rapid fire is more than likely at least some of the problem. This would settle the issues for them though. Since he is a qualified designated marksman in his platoon sniper recon team he should be able to handle that task himself I would think. Funny thing no more free time than he gets that in itself would be a challenge.

Bart I can't argue you on your point. At least this may reveal that the Corp is wasting their time on this 300 yard method as a valid qualification method and it can be changed. Maybe the kid has to much confidence in things being equal But from what I understand he is mainly looking at the prone to prone comparison only. He only considers the sitting as accurate for himself due to the design of the shooting stations and does not hold true when he is on the dirt. Who knows maybe a little of it may lay out in the design of the range and design material of the stations. I know in 29 Palms heat is a big factor as is desert conditions. May be in there lies some of the answer.

That is the other part of this kid though sometimes short on experience he is thorough and determined. He received his 2nd Naval Achievement Award for changes he made in the first 3 1/2 years he was over this range largely for implementing changes that improved marksman scores and qualifications that had been extremely low for a long time. I can see because of his drive to be the best especially in the field he loves he is trying to analyze every situation to make it better.

I really after reviewing all the material I have to believe that the round has way to much history to be at fault though there could be some minor physics thing at a particular range I can't see it being this major. Maybe the answer is two or three reasons that add up to something major when compiled and that may explain why it seems to crop up 90 % of the time and not 100 % . Maybe 10 -15 % of the time these reasons you all have listed become non factors for one reason or another. I will pass it along and maybe he can come up with a solution to forward to superiors to make the 300 yard range more positively productive for soldiers training and preparation. Thanks for the input and sharing your knowledge have a great day!

 

[Brian Pfleuger]

Actually, I wouldn't necessarily recommend (at least as #1 choice) the .243Win for your purposes although I think it'd do fine, with the right bullet, in any of your scenarios where the shooter could make the shot.

I wasn't looking for a 1,000 yard gun though, besides wanting to also use mine on woodchucks and wanting really minimize recoil. That changes things.

That's where the personal preferences come in. It's not like a 6.5mm is going to have ridiculous recoil, nor is it going to make any huge difference over a .243 on an animal. You've just got to take each variable and decide what's most important to you. Personally, I hate recoil. That was a top factor for me. I want to enjoy shooting. Others aren't so worried about recoil. It's all very personal.

 

[rdavidsonjr]

Brian again thanks, your direction is very unbiased and I appreciate the time you took. The info you have brought up will help keep things on a straight path to at least one of the top decisions maybe there is just not one stand alone caliber. Thanks and have a good night!

 

[Unlicensed Dremel]

The best answer, among more common/mainstream chamberings, is .260 rem or 6.5x55 swede. .280 Rem is up there too, as are a few others. .270 win. Although 1000 yards is ridiculous for hunting; don't be that (unethical) guy.

Well, wait - no - they're all equally accurate (raw) - but as for "practical" accuracy, my answer holds.

Practical accuracy means of course, minimizing wind estimation error, and minimizing drop estimation error.

 

[rdavidsonjr]

Never dream of it. The deer thing was a bad word way of excluding calibers below 243. Just getting an opinion from someone that knows more about long range accuracy than myself on caliber choice. I really wish at this point I had never said deer. HAHA! Maybe my next hobby! Thanks for the input !

 

[4runnerman]

Heck get the 308 or 243 and be done. The 260,6.5 and such are good also,but good luck finding components with ease. Lot's of places don't even carry stuff for them ( brass). The 308 would still be my choice.. A 243 with a good twist rate would be nice too. Any thing will work at 400 yards, But punching paper at 1000 or 1200 yards,now your getting into a more choice selective area if you want to do it with any kind of success.
The whole punching paper at that distance is the catch. You talking one maybe 2 or 3 shots or we talking a day at the range doing it?. The Heavy barrel is going to be your best bet,other's will work,but heat up fast. Then Again a heavy barrel is not fun to lug around hunting. If it's going to be your only rifle-Stick with something you can walk into Walmart or any sports store and buy ammo for.

 

[Unlicensed Dremel]

Heck get the 308 or 243 and be done. The 260,6.5 and such are good also,but good luck finding components with ease.

Well, .243 I'd agree, but hold on with respect to .308 comment: The .260 "blows away" the .308 in drop and drift at 1,000 yards (direct quote from Zak, the Demi-God LLC guy)... And--AND, it has less recoil. So we have to ask ourselves, do we need "ease" with which to get components, to get better performance with less recoil?

Even if the answer is yes, take a look:

http://www.midwayusa.com/find?sortby=1&itemsperpage=24&newcategorydimensionid=20661

http://www.midwayusa.com/find?sortby=1&itemsperpage=24&newcategorydimensionid=20324

83 bullets and 4 brass (but only two of 4 brass are available).... Well, I guess you're right then - 2 brass choices ain't all that much is it?

But if they were all in stock, I'd say 4 options is enough, and MidwayUSA has fast shipping. And 83 bullets are enough, even if only half are in stock.

 

[rdavidsonjr]

I really appreciate both of your opinions because after everything I have read these are the top picks I and my son have come down to. I guess I need to throw everything on the table and compare cost and availability and accuracy of these two. This is going to be a tough choice. But thanks for the help!

 

[603Country]

I've read most of this chat and it's interesting, but 1000 yards is a long way off, and a 243 or 308 is not the answer, and not even close. If somebody bet me some serious bucks about a 1000 yard deer shot (which, by the way, I would never even consider), I would most likely choose a 300 Win Mag,even though I have no love for belted cases. You gotta get there with some grunt.

And somebody said that the 300 meter line was tougher than the 500 at Edson Range. Baloney. I was just shy of perfect when I got to 500. The wind killed me. I'm still mad, after 45 years. My fault.

 

[4runnerman]

603country-We have established over and over it's not a 1000 yard deer shot. As for the 308 and 243 not for 1000 yard shots,you are very wrong. FTR class is 223 and 308 only. 1000 yards is a very easy paper shot for a 308 and a 243.

 

[Sure Shot Mc Gee]

Well I really don't think its one that has been mentioned. But I do know one fellow who owns one. And its no doubt a long distance shooter in his hands. 7mm Remington (Ultra Mag.) Couple years back He and I were sitting in his pick-up watching a large vacant farm field from its farm yard. I saw this individual without much difficulty shoot the full length of a 40 at the least with his Mag and smack a medium size doe so hard squarely in its ribs that I highly doubt it enough time to take one last breath before hitting the ground dead. What a assume caliber that is. LOUD TOO!!

I would also think the 300 Ultra Mag has the same capability too.

 

[rdavidsonjr]

Sure Shot Mc gee you are absolutely correct I have taken white tail at 300+. I've taken heavy mule deer at fairly long ranges. The gun is louder than loud and kicks as bad as my 300 mag or worse. But it does have a long range punch. I'm just looking for something a little easier on the shoulder that is extremely accurate at extreme ranges for fun punching paper.

 

[taylorce1]

While I chose the .243 Win for my long range rifle, it isn't a very good choice IMO if you don't reload and you don't have a properly twisted rifle.

1. You need a fast twist rifle to take advantage of the high BC bullets. The fastest twist factory rifles right now use a 1:9.25 twist which will stabilize some 105 grain bullets but not all, and you can't use the 107-115 bullets in most cases. So to be able to have the most amount of options for heavy bullets you'll need a custom barrel on your rifle.

2. If you don't reload your options are limited on ammunition. CorBon and Double Tap both load match quality ammunition DT uses a 105 grain Nosler Custom Competition bullet which works in the 9.25 twist barrels. CorBon however, uses the 115 grain DTAC bullet and you'll need an 8 twist or faster barrel for that bullet.

 

[rdavidsonjr]

Thanks for the info the 243 does have its attractions. Regardless of which of these I choose I have to do some homework on bullet availability and barrel selection and twist matching. The lay out and compare what's available and cost in the final decision.

 

[Sure Shot Mc Gee]

As stated: what is the most accurate 1000 yard deer caliber

I'm just looking for something a little easier on the shoulder that is extremely accurate at extreme ranges for fun punching paper.

I think__your looking for two requirements. Something comfortable to shoot. And in-between a 243 & 308 for distances out to possibly 1000 yards. That limits the field of calibers dramatically. I'm not one that study's awarded or history makers so to speak those who are involved in that part of the shooting sports.{long distance shooters specifically} Again from a practical point I don't know that much about the 243s qualifications other my using one in hunting experiences years ago. But I do know that long yardage shots have been accomplished by the 308. So leaving the big capacity cartridges out. Current known military cartridges left out. My recommendations would side with the use of the 308 deer caliber as you refer to it. But whether or not extreme accuracy can be achieved at those long distances is highly speculative.

 

[Jimro]

Easiest on the shoulder is 223 Rem. If you don't mind not using the heaviest pills available even a Savage Axis comes with a 22" 1:9 twist barrel. That will generally launch 75gr bullets nicely because of the barrel length, possibly heavier bullets if you can get velocity high enough.

A 75gr A-Max at 2,900 fps has a similar ballistic curve to the 175 SMK from a 308 Win at 2600 out to 1000 yards, dropping subsonic just before 1k at standard atmosphere temp/pressure.

I don't know of any commercial 223 load that will stay supersonic all the way, Mk262 will get you pretty close, 800 at least under standard temp/press.

Although the Savage 10 F/TR comes with a 1:7 twist 30" barrel which will give you the velocity boost for sure to get to 1k.

Jimro