What happened to the 6.5 Grendel?

Catfishman

New member
What happened to the 6.5 Grendel. Wasn't it ballistically superior to the 6.8. Basically it had half the recoil of a .308 and a much better bullet coefficient.

From what I read it was the closest thing to a majic bullet. Much more accurate and hard hitting than the 6.8 at longer ranges. Plenty powerful upclose. It doesn't rely on some tumbling seperating bullet voodoo like the 5.56.

It could simplify things for the Army. Same bullet for M4s, sniper rifles and machineguns.

I've considered buying a 6.5 AR, but I don't reload and I'm afraid the round may die.

I'm just repeating what I've read, but is any of it inaccurate? If not why don't we jump all over it.
 

Creeper

New member
There's a decent article on the 6.5 Grendel vs. 6.8SPC in the December issue of Special Weapons magazine, which goes into reasonable detail on the viability of each round as a military candidate... see if you can find it.

Both cartridges have their advantages and disadvantages as full or partial replacements for the 5.56... much of which is seldom considered from the perspective of civilians.

If you really think the 6.5 Grendel is a great, unique and worthwhile cartridge, then you might want to consider learing how to handload... regardless of it's viability as a military cartridge.

Cheers,
C
 

tirod

Moderator
Ballistic superiority is a shell game when the requirements aren't specified. In that regard, the 26" guns on a battleship can demonstrate ballistic superiority for foot pounds of force delivered - but the ballistic coefficients aren't that good.

The 6.5 Grendel was designed to use the PPC/Russian case propelling the high BC bullets in an AR action for long distance precision shooting. Works great, still holds a 600m record IIRC. AT THAT RANGE, they do not have the 1000 foot pounds of force considered a requirement for a lethal hit. .308's still do.

It makes no difference how great the BC is, if the bullet doesn't have enough mass to retain energy, it's not going to happen. .308 has more mass. 6.5 doesn't.

6.8 doesn't either at those ranges. It was designed for up to 500 yards, which is the limit most actual soldiers will shoot in battle. The 6.8 was designed to shoot from a short carbine barrel with a larger bullet for more lethality. Different game altogether. The confusion starts when it's assumed the 6.5 will perform the same in a 16" barrel or shorter. The design doesn't work that way - it requires a 20"+ barrel to get the 600m results. Out of a short barrel, it's doesn't deliver the same. The 6.8 does.

Apples and oranges.

One round to rule them all, one round to kill them all is BS. It takes different powder loads, cartridge shapes, and bullets to get results at different ranges. To get those results, mass or speed has to be used to deliver energy. The 6.5 uses a long heavy bullet to reach out - 130 grain is common. The 6.8 is getting optimized at about 95 grain - and gets driven faster to achieve similar results at different ranges.

As for the caliber choices on the battlefield, the Army has always used different calibers for different ranges, and has capabilities to reach each. Consolidating to one caliber would call for a huge expense for little reward. The guns currently issued get the job done with the "cost of business" staying the same. It's why the M14 was dragged out of mothballs, rather than spending millions more on tests and competitions that won't get something significantly better - better - than what is already in the system. Not worth the time bothering.

What is a problem is when marketing - propaganda designed to sell something - is taken at face value. Kinda like politics, don't believe everything you hear, research and find out what are the really important issues.
 

support_six

New member
I remember something about the length of the case and it's design not being compatible with the standard links to form belted machine gun ammunition.
 

tirod

Moderator
I've been dumped on for suggesting that. There does seem to be a similarity in MG ammo with a "slow" shoulder angle. It could be assumed by looks the lower angle would feed better than the blunt corner on the 6.5. That shoulder is there to maximize case capacity.

Another consideration is whether the case diameter to bullet diameter ratio has any influence. I haven't stumbled on any engineering yet.

What happened historically to the 6.5 Grendel is Alexander Arms keeping tight control of licensing of the technology and name. Other things, like parts availability of barrels has been less than optimum for some reason. So the round didn't take off like the 6.8, despite it's teething problems.

Les Baer has recently introduced the .264 LBC, which is the same thing for us. Speculation on the move is that he is trying to influence the market by offering the design in open format to any barrel maker, and it's reported he ordered 700,000 cases with his head stamp. Basically, it looks like muscling into the market, and I bet the market will follow - for those who want the caliber. More than that, who knows.

What is clear is that the 6.8 SPC II is the #1 alternate AR caliber with more ammo from more suppliers, more barrels, and more users hunting and shooting it. BUT - to be fair, it's still considered by many to be a wildcat.

Maybe time will tell if it becomes the 6.8x43 NATO. Right now, it's a good round on it's own and will be around for a long time.
 

Gunplummer

New member
6.8 ammo

I put a 6.8 barrel on an AR upper last year. I didn't want to reload and had a devil of a time finding hunting ammo for it. I ended up taking hollow points along to West Virginia last year. They definitely put a hole in a deer, but I would rather have had soft points. Point is, I had a hard time getting the hollow points, listed as OTM. I don't really have much in it, as I picked up a cheap .270 blank, but I have to wonder how long that cartridge will be around.
 

TRguy

New member
Directly similar to the 6.5 BPC, Alexander Arms has a HORRIBLE CS rep.....but ppl that shoot the cartridge tend to like the performance. Good thing you have other options.

6.5 BPC
6.5 Creedmoor
 

tirod

Moderator
Check with 68forums. There are over a dozen ammo loaders and three dozen cartridges available. Not on the shelf, on the internet. Brick and mortar chains are too slow to respond to the market any more.

Same for any of the other rounds listed - buy off the internet. Unless your local Cabela's has them on the shelf, most of the rest of the country is only going to have rounds invented over ten years ago. They've moved faster on inline blackpowder than new wildcats.

It's still taking their customers some time to get used to seeing M4geries in the rack, much less a new caliber. It's Elmer Fuddland out there.
 

lej0012

New member
remember reading some stuff on this arguement sometime ago. Issues with the 5.56 round came to the fore in afganistan and iraq when people were being shot outside the 5.56's fragmentation range and getting up and walking away (so to speak).

the three issues from memory with the transition to a new cartrige were:

1. Combat marksmanship performance was reduced the more recoil you introduced into a weapon system. Average soldiers (remember not everyone in the army is an expert marksman or sniper) were 3 times less likely to hit a human target at 300m with a .308 than they were with a 5.56. Not because of the gun but simply their ability with a bigger harder kicking gun. A larger round doesnt mean much if you dont/cant hit the target in the first place!

2. Simple size and weight , you can carry more 5.56 ammo than you can 6.5/ 6.8 for the same weight and more 5.56/6.5/6.8 than you can .308 ... you get the idea.

3. The cost associated with changing right across the board, iraq is costing big bucks as it is and with the current world economy spare cash isnt growing on trees. As changing the round in the US meant taking into account NATO considerations plus other allied country that all use the nato 5.56 round.

As for changing over to one round well, snipers in that region were showing preferance for longer range rounds like the .338 lapua mag and the .50cal BMG because of the extended ranges they were facing, plus the improvement of rifle systems and optics over the past few years plus laser range finders, hand held weather stations and ballistics calculators means they can reach out and touch somebody regularly at ranges that were not common place a few years ago, so for them the 6.5 grendel wasnt going to cut it and alot of the heavier machine guns were already working effectively with .308 (7.62) plus rounds so didnt seem much point in changing that either.

From what i recall the transition to the mk 262 or similar was more likely than a cal change.

Please dont unload on me if ive misssed something or got something backwards was a while ago that i was reading about this and its just what i remember from the articles :)
 

Crazy Carl

New member
I've toyed with the idea of having my .223 700 SPS Tactical re-barreled for 6.5G, but seems a re-barrel would cost about as much as a paid for the rifle.

Like the rifle, but it almost seems counter-intuitive to have a precision rifle that doesn't have any oomph left at precision ranges- which is why I was considering the re-barrel.
 

mpd61

New member
How selective of you!

The 6.5 Grendel was designed to use the PPC/Russian case propelling the high BC bullets in an AR action for long distance precision shooting. Works great, still holds a 600m record IIRC. AT THAT RANGE, they do not have the 1000 foot pounds of force considered a requirement for a lethal hit. .308's still do.

I wish you would just admit you have a vendetta against the 6.5 Grendel, and think the 6.8SPC is the bee's knee's cuz you have swallowed all the marketing hype. Just go out and buy a .260 or 6.5x55 and stop it....PAHLEEZE!:barf:

http://www.65grendel.com/65g_65and68.htm

Please note the overall impression with the surprise revelation in regards to the 6.5 grendel retained energy. I guess you know more than an USA Ordinance Major :eek:
 
Last edited:

Longdayjake

New member
It appears as though the 6.5 grendel is getting a stronger foothold in the market. Hornady just started making a case and bullet specific for the grendel. Black Hills is loading for the .264 Les Baer which is the same thing. Alexander Arms really sucked it up with their licensing requirements but now that it has broken free from Alexander's stupid mythological name and greedy grip I think it has much further to go. If you are worried about it going away some day then you must be worried that demand for ar15s in alternate calibers will go away. Don't take anything that Tirod says as gospel as he really is hung up on the 6.8 and doesn't listen to reason or logic. Here is another thread almost identical to yours that I proved that the 6.5 was as good and even superior to the 6.8 from a 16" barrel but he ignored all that and just copied and pasted 6.8 propaganda as his response.

http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=402908
 

tirod

Moderator
The really difficult part of discussing the differences between 6.8 and 6.5 is that they are relatively minor. They are both improvements over 5.56 in many ways. Not all the improvements are in the same area. What is difficult for some to accept is that some areas can't and will not be comparable. Two different calibers, with different case shapes, different bullets, and different end goals, can't and won't be the same.

If there is a problem with discussing those differences, it's that some won't accept anything less than compete acceptance of all the data they publish. To even question their perspective automatically means being completely in the koolaid camp of the opposition. From that perspective, only one caliber can be right, the other must be wrong, and the natural order of the universe will right itself.

Far from being a disciple of the 6.8, I stumbled on it looking for an alternative to the 5.56. The state of Missouri had already accepted it as a legal method to hunt deer - in fact, now allow any - ANY - centerfire rifle cartridge. I don't accept the 5.56 as a viable hunting round. Being an old .308 fanboy, it just didn't make the grade regardless of my 22 years Reserve duty.

Once I looked at the origins of 6.8, I ran across the 6.5. Another alternative. Research into that showed a different origin, and different design parameters. If anything, I just repeat what the proponents and their websites say. That has become a moving target lately - and even the owner of one caliber now insists that the history of the cartridge is quite different from the published web page on his own site.

What is really going on is a marketing challenge to confront the 6.8 - which has become accepted by a growing number of AR owners who want to hunt with a legal round in their state. Through circumstances entirely within their control, in my opinion, the 6.5 has not prospered. Whether this remains true now that there is a new marketing effort by a second party is up in the air. Another AR caliber to choose from isn't a win/lose proposition for shooters - it's all good as it will improve sales for all makers, and offer more for shooters. What is a win/lose is to make it that kind of contest. Nobody has to pick just one - an AR owner can have both. My attempt in discussing the difference is to amplify what each does best. If this is perceived as being a wholesale sellout to one side is a good illustration of how much some parties in the 6.5 camp are insistent that only they can be right. That attitude is not constructive to the discussion, or for AR fans.

I've never said the 6.5 was inferior in all but one respect to the 6.8, others have. I haven't published manipulated data based on one barrel length asserting it as another, and I haven't insisted that only one can be right - and only the competent can agree with me. I haven't said I'm expert on the subject. I have said what I know to be fact - and if that is difficult for some to admit, the problem isn't with me. Check other sources. Research it. Be open and find out for yourself.

I do, I don't accept just one view as being the end-all be-all on a subject. I certainly don't have expectations that one caliber can solve all problems, can be the only proper selection by the Army, or that their even needs to be change. Having a contrary opinion isn't valid grounds to be negatively characterized - unless someone is getting down to their last desperate bid opposing a valid opinion, one they are afraid is actually fair and well informed.

I do welcome others to read other forums. Find out for yourself, choose what is important to you, and try it. If it doesn't work, fine, if it does, ok. You found out for yourself. After all, if we didn't try something new, we'd still be shooting blackpowder.

Both parties are looking to improve on the performance of the 5.56. How that is done may well be superceded by an entirely different caliber yet to be introduced. It's happened before, it could happen again. It doesn't mean either the 6.8 or 6.5 is going away any time soon. That would also be a contradiction of historical precedent.
 

Kmar40

New member
remember reading some stuff on this arguement sometime ago. Issues with the 5.56 round came to the fore in afganistan and iraq when people were being shot outside the 5.56's fragmentation range and getting up and walking away (so to speak).
Yeah, same problem the Russians had with those Afghani's when they shot them with 7.62x39 and 7.62x54R. Those Afghanis kept walking away.

And our VA's were full of GI's who walked away from 8mm Mauser wounds and 7mm Jap rounds.

Heard we left a few hundred thousand Germans with 30-06 holes in them.

Someone needs to design a wonder bullet.

And where did that 1000 ft/lb's come from? I guess the 45 ACP and 9mm isn't lethal even at point blank range?

As for the Army Major, I've known quite a few who weren't as smart as the desk they were sitting behind. Now that I think about it, not sure that I ever met an ordnance officer that had a triple digit IQ.
 

mpd61

New member
Cynical, critical, subjective MAYBE?

Tirod uses a lot of space to articulate his views. I'm still not sure about focus or point-to-point discourse...

As far as the Major being smart behind his desk, I was using him as a reference for PUBLISHED conclusions from a DoD source...

In the end, Who really gives a flying "F"? May Tirod be able to afford a new 6.8SPC in his favorite versatile do-it-all barrel length. And may nobody ever have to serve with, or come across a smart major
:D
 

Longdayjake

New member
The problem with Tirod's opinions is they are all based off of what he has read on the internet or magazine. He has no actual experience with the 6.5 grendel but for some reason he thinks that his ownership of a 6.8 makes him an expert on 6.5 grendel. He is correct that they were developed differently but he is incorrect in thinking that the 6.5 grendel cannot do most everything that the 6.8 can do from ANY length barrel. He thinks that the grendel is only a long range gun but I have continually shown that the grendel can match and exceed the 6.8 in energy as early as 25 yards. Even giving the 6.8 an unrealistic 200 fps head start the grendel can match the energy as soon as 150 yards. He doesn't believe it because he doesn't understand physics and can't believe that something small that goes faster doesn't always beat a bigger bullet going slower.

Okay Tirod, since you don't like my choice of bullets to compare please give me a bullet choice for the 6.8 that you think will far outperform the grendel and I will find you a bullet choice in the grendel that will match and beat the energy of the 6.8 within 100 yards. NO MATTER WHAT BARREL LENGTH. Not that I believe it will make a difference as Tirod refuses to accept any kind of ballistics calculations as viable evidence.
 

tirod

Moderator
Being asked for something I already specified and is listed as a load on a posters own website: 95 grain copper hollow points from 16" barrels.

As for being too dense to understand physics, it would help if the explanation wasn't buried in reams of numbers and chest thumping that only the poster can be correct.

As I said, I have been looking for an alternate caliber to the 5.56, and present the facts as written by and determined from others, as published from their sites and posts. Nope, I don't have a business position to maintain, front for a retailer, or run my own forum. I'm just trying to understand a simple comparison that many others have made consistently in my research. 6.8 was built for 16" barrels and more lethality, 6.5 was built for paper punching precision. It don't own either yet - I don't have a dog in the fight. I don't need to win. I just want to find out which is better, and it seems that once again, rather than present simple comparisons, an ego gets involved, and the questioner is treated as if he said "But the emperor isn't wearing any clothes!"

It's been a consistent trait of posters who are enthusiasts of the 6.5 - belittle anyone who questions the data they themselves know to be tainted, making sweeping assertions that a caliber can trump others in any measurable category, and refusing to accept that their view may not be omniscient. As a group, it's not a good representation of the original work that was an earnest attempt to secure a 600m record.

I've said it before here and elsewhere, suddenly marketing the 6.5 as a supreme short barrel tactical cartridge after all these years of marketing 20 and 24" barrels smells. What I smell is money, and the 6.5 marketers are now trying to break into the tactical carbine market where the money is.

If it really is such a good cartridge, supply the side by side ballistics and let the public see it. I'm interested. Don't think for a minute that simply saying it can do the job, trust me, constitutes valid proof.

Trust me! had believers lined up in Jonestown drinking koolaid. If that makes me a heretic in not accepting someone else's worldview on ballistic truth, so be it.
 
Top