What exactly happens when you hit somebody with over 1,000lumens at night?

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If you are going to spend any time in England, buy a London Bobby's whistle. This can be taken on any aircraft. At the FIRST sign of a problem, blow the crap out of it. This is their police call for help, and they will be there too fast to be believed. (Been there, done that)

Funny thing about the Bobby whistles is that they pretty well died out for summoning help in the 1970s with the introduction of radios. You can probably blow your whistle all day long and not have a Bobby show up...assuming any actually heard you. They are a very short range item and there has to be bobbies in earshot for them to be effective.

They were briefly reintroduced in 2008 for crowd control (specific application), not for summoning help on dark and stormy nights when nefarious foes might be most apt to prey upon the kindly tourists from across the pond.
 

Yankee Doodle

New member
Well, the incident I mentioned took place in June 2011. Thankfully, it turned out to be minor. (highly intoxicated person on Oxford Street.) However, the first cop was on the scene in about 1 minute, and the other two showed up about 5 minutes later.
Whereas the police are, of course, using radios, a great many of the civilians still carry the whistles. The Constables are always listening for them. They then get on the radio for assistance if needed.
In any case, I still feel that there is no reason to overly concern yourself.
In addition, FWIW, the London Metropolitan Police are the most friendly, polite, helpful and professional acting cops I have ever dealt with. Of course, since I am retired off the "Job", I might have been treated differently. However, I doubt it.
 

Buzzcook

New member
Still think I'm paranoid?

Pretty much yes.

London attracted 15.3 million international visitors in 2011
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tourism_in_London

Latest Crime Figures for London
Crimes against the person (total)
145,613
http://www.met.police.uk/crimefigures/

the capital's resident population was 8.17 million
http://www.londonhigher.ac.uk/population.html

145,613 is 0.62% of 23.47m
0.95% of 15.3m
1.78% of 8.17m

OK now do the math for Robbery (person) 29,951 which is the crime you express concern about.
http://www.math.com/students/calculators/source/3percent.htm
 

Deaf Smith

New member
But...


Five police held over ‘false crime statistics’
http://www.thetimes.co.uk/tto/news/uk/crime/article3600485.ece


British Crime Statistics Are Falsified To Support False Claim That U.K. Gun Ban Is Lowering Crime
http://www.dailyunconstitutional.co...claim-that-british-gun-ban-is-lowering-crime/


Police fail to report 1.4m crimes

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/this-britain/police-fail-to-report-14m-crimes-710742.html

See the U.K. police do lie when it comes to stats on crime.

Deaf
 

MLeake

New member
Buzzcook, your lowest figure comes out at .62 %, or roughly 1 in 160 people, per year.

What are your relative odds of having a car wreck?

Do you find it paranoid to always use a seat belt?
 
Well, the incident I mentioned took place in June 2011. Thankfully, it turned out to be minor. (highly intoxicated person on Oxford Street.) However, the first cop was on the scene in about 1 minute, and the other two showed up about 5 minutes later.
Whereas the police are, of course, using radios, a great many of the civilians still carry the whistles. The Constables are always listening for them. They then get on the radio for assistance if needed.
In any case, I still feel that there is no reason to overly concern yourself.
In addition, FWIW, the London Metropolitan Police are the most friendly, polite, helpful and professional acting cops I have ever dealt with. Of course, since I am retired off the "Job", I might have been treated differently. However, I doubt it.

Sounds like you had some fortuitous circumstances. Response times of 10 minutes to 999 calls are considered quite good across various municipalities.
http://www.thebureauinvestigates.co...taking-up-to-30-longer-to-react-to-999-calls/

In London, officers arriving within the recommended 12 minutes is just 71% of the time.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/england/london/3481419.stm

Lest we not forget this poor chap.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...9-calls-claims-armed-officers-14-minutes.html
 

Pond James Pond

New member
As to threats, the rate of random street violence in London is FAR, far higher than in the US. Odds of being mugged at night as a tourist are...well, bad, if you get into the wrong area but even in the "good" areas, it's BAD.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...g-centres.html

Look at the levels of crime in just one big shopping center in a month:

* "Violent crime" at 235

* 52 robberies

* "Public disorder and weapons" at 142, and whatever that is, it's separate from the much less common "simple posession of weapons" at 3

* Violence and sexual offenses: 37

Again: that is ONE shopping mall.

Still think I'm paranoid?

Europe together with many other places around the world are not the Wild West.

Firstly, I should point out that the shopping centre you've quoted is said to be the "worst in Europe". That means all others are better. It also does not mean all others were almost as bad. Just don't go there. Heck, don't even go to shopping centres: the most boring, generic places known to man

Secondly, it is in an area of London that is relatively poor. If you think of poorer or more deprived areas of NY or LA etc, then it is probably the equivalent.

Thirdly, it is also the area that hosted the Olympics. So we have crime stats for the area of the Olympics, covering a period that included the Olympics. Hmmm....I sense atypical circumstances might well be somewhere behind those figures...
Still, tourists were not being shipped back in body bags, in their thousands, during or after the games, if I recall.

In addition, the Daily Mail is one of the UK's more sensationalist papers. When not trying to make middle-England gasp with outrage and shock over their tea and digestive biscuits, their other major selling point is celebrity gossip :rolleyes:. Personally, I've grown to take what they print with a good dose of salt.

Finally, and most importantly, the OP was about whether or not a torch could have any SD value, so let's not get side-tracked with another "The UK/Europe is an anarchic death-trap" tirade, but instead stick to the topic.

For the purposes of clarity: I fell confident in saying that airport security are not going to confiscate a torch...
If they see a metal cylinder in a bag that is not recognisable as a torch they may, quite understandably, want to take a closer look at it. If anything, they'll ask you to switch it on to prove it is a functional torch, and then let you re-pack. That is not quite the same as demanding proof it is not a weapon.
Just don't pack a 6D Maglite in your rucksack or you may raise some eyebrows. Even then you might just need to check it in, instead.
Anyway, I'd have thought that serious security in the airports would be a welcome thing...

To the OP:
Europe is a fascinating place that is incredibly rich in history and cultures which can be like chalk and cheese yet only a border apart. Music, sights, sounds, food, beverages of every kind packed into such a small, easily navigable area...
Like everywhere there are idiots and bad people. Also like everywhere, the vast majority of folk are decent human beings with a far greater urge to help than to harm.
I drove across the continent with my family from Estonia to Spain then back again over the summer, sometimes sleeping in the van. Never had a single problem. And all my guns were locked away at home.

Seriously, if your first reaction to a holiday around Europe is that you're being "dragged" there, then perhaps you shouldn't go. I think it is a fabulous opportunity, but that is me and tend to think that about most possible destinations.
However, if you feel you're going to spend the whole trip expecting to be ambushed by foot-pads at every corner, you won't enjoy any of it. What would be the point? Holidays are supposed to be fun...
 
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Buzzcook

New member
Do you find it paranoid to always use a seat belt?

Nope.

one out of every four people will be in a car accident in their lifetime. Your chances of dieing in a car accident are 1 out of every 140 people.
http://wiki.answers.com/Q/What_are_the_odds_of_being_in_a_car_accident

Car accidents annual deaths 44,757 lifetime risk 1 in 84
http://well.blogs.nytimes.com/2007/10/31/how-scared-should-we-be/

I do find it paranoid to expect personal attacks in the tourist areas of major European cities.

Deaf Smith, this is from your first link.
The officers, a detective inspector, a detective sergeant and three detective constables, are accused of persuading suspects to confess to offenses they had not committed in order to improve the unit's performance statistics.
The article doesn't support your contention.
http://www.thetimes.co.uk/tto/news/uk/crime/article3600485.ece

Your second link references the third.
http://www.dailyunconstitutional.co...claim-that-british-gun-ban-is-lowering-crime/

The third link is the meat of your position as I understand it.
An estimated 1.4m crimes are going unrecorded by the police every year partly because officers bend the rules to exaggerate their success, government inspectors have discovered.

That would according to the article increase total crime to 6.7m from 5.3.

But it gets murky when we ask what the article considers to be crimes.

The Home Office's statistics directorate wants to tighten up the police recording procedures and publish two sets of figures, one for crimes where there is evidence of illegality, and another for all allegations of an offence.
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/this-britain/police-fail-to-report-14m-crimes-710742.html
Doesn't that indicate that some of those 1.4m crimes are reports of crimes with no evidence of illegality?
Does it also indicate that some reported crimes are allegations rather than actual crimes?
Would that mean that British crime statistics are in some ways lower, because they include instances where there is no evidence of illegality?
 

MLeake

New member
Buzzcook, you say 1 in 4 will be involved in a car accident in their lifetime.

If your lowball number of .62% (or roughly 1 in 160) is for a one year period, then over a 72 year life span there would be a 44.6% chance of becoming the victim of a crime against persons - roughly double the risk of car accident.

You seemed to compare annual violence vs lifetime traffic numbers.
 

Buzzcook

New member
MLeake, the OP will be in Europe for a matter of weeks or months not years.

Don't think your multiplication of risk by years is correct. The chances stay the same year after year. It's like flipping a coin the odds are always 50/50 flipping heads 3 times in a row doesn't increase the odds that the next flip will be tails.


As you can see by this report.
http://www-nrd.nhtsa.dot.gov/Pubs/97.835.PDF
The odds of dying in a car crash vary depending on a range of conditions, age sex, time of day etc.

The same would be true of the risks of personal attack in a major European city. One condition that would reduce that risk (imho) would be, being a tourist in areas frequented by tourist, ie the British Museum, Trafalgar Square, Abby Road.

Capt Rick Hiott ,,,,,,this started out talking about flash lights......
Flashlights used as weapons.
 

MLeake

New member
Actually, if the odds of a coin flip are 50/50, then for any given toss they are 50/50.

But, over 10,000 tosses, one would expect to see heads about 5,000 times.

IE, you are changing the math to suit your argument, when the numbers do not support it.

As far as months, not years, then the odds of a crime against person remain very low, yet still twice as high as those of a car wreck in that same short period.

Again, would the OP be paranoid for wearing his seat belt?
 

G1R2

New member
Dear Gentlemen:

I think the answer to the question is quite simple.

"What exactly happens when you hit somebody with over 1,000 lumens at night?"

Who knows? Just buy a flashlight with 1,000 lumens power, stand in front of a mirror at night and turn it on ----- wow, you've got your answer!

Long ago, I stopped asking simple questions on this forum because no one could give a simple answer. I'm afraid the majority of those who post answers on this forum would never pass a basic English reading comphehension exam.
 
I see you had trouble with the reading and comprehension test as well, LOL.

Seems to me the OP asked about the affects of various levels of lumens in both continuous and strobe modes as well as noting a whole variety of contextual parameters and then specifically asked for "Thoughts?"

He didn't just ask a simple question, but a serious of questions including an expansive open-ended question.

People get hit with 1000 - 3000 lumens all the time - headlights. Sure, we flinch some, maybe advert our eyes a bit, but we don't shirk down in pain and horror of the amazing power.

I am very confident that the proclaimed lumens are highly exaggerated, though the lights will be quite bright.
 
You haven't been clubbing in the last couple of decades, have you? ;)

Since a flashy light has to be kept on your aggressor to be effective, if it will be effective, what are you doing about his buddies?

GB is no different here and it if you look into your stats and delve deeper into the incidents, you will find a lot involve multiples of attackers. What then?

How disorienting will the strobe be on you? Yes, your aggressor will get a lot more of the light, but if 5-10% is reflected back at you because of the close range, you are still getting hundreds of flashy lumens in your face, a level that Surefire considers to be useful as a weapon.

Note that many aggressors will simply attack the light. The light won't stop, but will draw them in violently. You will be holding the light.

So if you are playing the percentage game that for the short time you are in GB that you might be a victim of a crime and want to use a light as a weapon, then consider too that if that happens, probably more likely than you being a victim is the fact that the light isn't going to do diddly-squat. If the light didn't have so many other good uses, then I would suggest YD's Bobby Whistle over a flashlight. At least the whistle might summon you some help.

Anybody here ever attended one of those "fighting flashlights" self defense courses where professionals from the self defense industry give 1-2 days of instruction on how to stop bad guys with flashlight illumination? You know the courses where they teach flashing on the run, flashing from cover, CQF (close quarters flashing), speed battery changes, etc.?

There is a good reason why. Flashlight illumination is not effective at stopping attackers with any sort of consistency or reliability.

Jim, you are considering or have already put way too much stock into the credibility of illumination as a weapon and that could get you into real trouble.

Then there is the issue that all that light doesn't mean a whole lot for all of the daytime attacks. Light, and how people react to it, is relevant to ambient lighting conditions. Headlights don't do a whole lot in the daytime, do they?
 
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Ben Towe

New member
1,000 lumens shined in your eyes in a dark place will completely blind you for 10 seconds or so, it will take minutes to fully regain your vision. I know, because a buddy accidentally did it to me a couple nights ago with a 1200 lumen light.
 

Glenn E. Meyer

New member
I wouldn't trust a flashlight to be a blinding tool except at close ranges in the dark. My experience in dark exercises at any distance but close up is that the light effect is trivial in performance. I have tested myself at close up at full dark adaptation with a Surefire and it did set me back. But move back aways and I could still function.

I found the strobes did nothing to disconcert me.
 

G1R2

New member
Bravo

We finally got the answer.

"1,000 lumens shined in your eyes in a dark place will completely blind you for 10 seconds or so, it will take minutes to fully regain your vision. I know, because a buddy accidentally did it to me a couple nights ago with a 1200 lumen light."
 
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