Weapon Mounted Light Training...

[Bill DeShivs]

I remember when High Standard was building flashlights into bullpup shotguns.

If you are a cop, there may be a need for a WML.

In your own home, IMO there is no need at all. If you are holding someone at gunpoint, you have light switches on the wall. My experience is that most times you won't be holding anyone at gunpoint. Most criminals know you won't shoot them if they are retreating-they just run.

For carry- sticking a flashlight on the end of your gun seems ridiculous to me.

 

[PPGMD]

If you are holding someone at gunpoint, you have light switches on the wall.

Speak for yourself, I live in an almost 100 year old house. Light switches are rarely where you need them. For example if I was in my kitchen or either of my bedrooms and someone were in my living room I would have to cross the entire living room to get to the light switch.

 

[ShaulWolf]

Actually, with the advent of newer WML's such as the Streamlight TLR-6 or Surefure XC1, having a compact weapon light for deeper concealed carry is a viable option. There's also the ability to use AIWB holsters with lights; I'm able to comfortably carry a G23 w/ TLR-1HL in an appendix rig and have no one notice.

As for the employment of a WML in a tactical scenario (aka, lethal force is likely or in use)... text will only show and tell you so much. A lot of scenarios are being thrown about where the actual employment is in question. Classes with professional instruction and/or force-on-force will go over all this and highlight the best uses for a handheld and WML.

Home defense keeps popping up, and there's a lot of ways it can play out. You can barricade in your room and keep the lights off. Call 911 while keeping your weapon trained on the door, and if the door opens, flash the WML at the person's chest to ID if they're a threat. Shoot if a lethal threat is there, keep the light in their face and hold at gunpoint otherwise. Light and weapon are still trained on the threat while one hand is free to talk to 911.

Still home defense... If you have to leave your room to go get a loved one (ie, children), you'll be able to have your gun up and use the WML to do quick scans. You'll have a free hand to open doors or guide loved one(s), and have your weapon and light ready at the same time. This will also let you PID if the person in front of you is a threat or not. Return to your room with your loved one(s), or barricade the room once you reach them.

Why not just turn on the light? Because that puts you and the intruder on equal footing. I'd rather be able to control when the light is there, and direct the light. I don't want them to be able to have a clear picture of where I am, but I want to be able to clearly see where they are and what they're doing (ie, holding a gun or surrendering).

 

[James K]

"Use some common sense and logic..."

That is what I have been trying to do, but I can't find anyone who wants to think about what a really bad guy might be doing to you while you are fiddling with your lights. That is natural; we all tend to think what "we" are going to do to "them", not what "they" might do to "us". As I said earlier, I have never been shot or shot at, but I suspect neither is a pleasant experience, which is why I don't see much point in taking a training course based on ads by makers of WML's or a lot of blather by teenage cop wannabes whose experience is even less than mine.

Jim

 

[ShaulWolf]

So... you're completely discounting what anyone is saying based on the assumption that we're teenage cop wannabes, or that the instructor of a low light course is shilling for a company or product..? If you're going off of these assumptions from the start, then why bother with trying to ask questions here at all?

I can tell you right now that the operations of the lights I use let me get the gun on target and toggle the light on at the same time, with one or two hands. As for what the other guy might be doing, I don't know, but if I'm employing a WML I'd imagine it's not something pleasant. And we've already gone over why a WML would be useful in those situations.

So are you actually trying to learn anything, do we need to try to explain something differently, or are you trying to ignore what's already being said?

 

[PPGMD]

Because he is the walking talking example of the Dunning–Kruger Effect, he knows very little about the subject but he has a lot to say about it. And nobody short of Dale Comstock will convince him of his ignorance, heck I have my doubts that he could either.

 

[James K]

I guess I will just have to hope that if I am attacked, I will have so many gallant and experienced police officers to defend me. Thank you.

Jim

 

[ShaulWolf]

Because he is the walking talking example of the Dunning–Kruger Effect, he knows very little about the subject but he has a lot to say about it. And nobody short of Dale Comstock will convince him of his ignorance, heck I have my doubts that he could either.

It's not even that he's said a whole lot. He's offered no counterpoints or anything to the discussion. The only thing that's been added is a whole lot of sarcasm and attempts to belittle. I honestly expected more from an apparent staff member.

 

[ShaulWolf]

I just wanted to thank you for the link to that video. It got me curious enough to watch another video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g9vc10WpRbw

Which discusses hand-held light techniques, and then another video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a3hI5fjNyI8

Which goes into WML techniques. These discussions/tutorials have definitely given me much to think about, especially about my HD tactics, if I ever was forced to move around my house looking for a potential BG. This is not something I've ever given much thought, as I always figured the dogs would take care of such things, while I hunkered comfortably in my bedroom calling 911 and pointing a shotgun at the door.

But there are times the dogs aren't home, and times when there are guests staying over (like my nephew and niece) and I'd have to move around the house to check on them, given a strange noise/alarm goes off.

One thing I do know from having taken a low-light training class recently is that I'm not nearly as fast or accurate shooting one-handed while trying to hold a flashlight. And manipulating the gun/mag changes while holding a flashlight are clumsy and also slow. And if I got into a real hurry, the chances of dropping my flashlight increase as well.

I know one thing for sure. I just ordered one of those Thyrm Switchbacks for my Streamlight to make it a lot harder to drop the thing, and a lot easier to manipulate the gun.

Thanks again.

Ranger, I missed your comment, and glad the video was helpful. Aaron puts out a lot of solid info.

Also, as simple and stupid as it sounds, a lanyard or 550 cord for a handheld light does wonders for retention. It's a bit of a PITA for duty, but it's useful for general carry if you don't have a Thyrm.

 

[Troy800]

Alot of good points. My personal preferance is a handheld light. As CCW and home defense that will be my choice. Both have pros and cons. If i was serving an official capacity and going into known hostile enviroment my choice may be different. I like the freedom of the light in my hand and not attached to my weapon. I can move it quicker in large areas, use splash light or direct to the eyes. No harm done if it happens to not be an intruder. In the past 30 years i have investigated a lot of bumps in the night. Ive seen sleep walking kids, wife home early from out of town trip, brother in law making himself at home, neighbor drunk knocking things over in the back yard, all sorts of critters but never a hostile intruder. I like to think i am reasonably prepared if that day comes.

I have a 300 and a 1000 lumen light. I prefer the 300 lumen streamlight. It is more than bright enough in and around the house. It is blinding if shined in the eyes at night, and yes i had my daughters test it on me. Totaly blinding, no way could i have aimed at the light and shot, only spray and pray. I love my 1000 lumen streamlight outside but the splash light is too bright inside, totaly ruins my night vision.

 

[Satchmoeddie]

I don't use a WML anymore. Too much liability, and too much maintenance. It took a single CR123 cell, so I bought 4 rechargeable batteries, and a really good quality charger. I'd keep two on the charger, one in the light, and a spare in my pocket. The batteries would only last about a week. Once you turned the light or laser on and off, once, the battery would be dead in 2 days or less, so I kept a strict regimen of charging batteries & changing them out. I eventually said, "Screw this!" and went to some very reliable $5 Chinese made single AAA battery penlights that started life as bore inspection lights. I keep one clipped on my shirt all the time. It takes a AAA, which are sold anywhere & everywhere. They are just bright enough to identify someone in my postage stamp sized yard, and no brighter. From the "dirty tricks to not get you killed" file: I will carry an old Thyristor SLR film camera flash unit into the yard, along with a flashlight, and the Sig P228R, or a 66-2 in a shoulder holster. If I see someone, and can not ID them, hit him/her with that photo flash, but blink when you hit that button, then move, and use your flashlight. They won't regain their night vision for quite a while. In tactical terms, they are blind as a bat for at least 7 seconds, which is a whole lot of time to make decisions draw, move, shoot, yell, hit, kick, etc. You want the old thyristor & capacitor xenon photo flash that makes a popping noise when it fires, and you can feel the heat coming off of it. I got away from using the weapon mounted light, because I really don't want or need to go to jail for pointing my gun at someone just to use the light. I still use the old photo flash trick. I either have a very angry family member, maybe a drunk neighbor, or a terrified trespasser looking down the barrel of something, when he/she eventually stops seeing spots. I still have the Surefire somewhere. I got a good 10 years use out of it. It takes batteries. It makes the gun larger. It requires drawing & pointing the gun to use the light. Sometimes I will put the light back on the pistol when I travel cross country. I have a super bright Surefire flashlight in the vehicle, the penlights, and ?? guns. I usually plan to stop at a range somewhere along the way, and shoot. Xs 4 $s?

 

[PPGMD]

I don't use a WML anymore. Too much liability, and too much maintenance. It took a single CR123 cell, so I bought 4 rechargeable batteries, and a really good quality charger. I'd keep two on the charger, one in the light, and a spare in my pocket. The batteries would only last about a week. Once you turned the light or laser on and off, once, the battery would be dead in 2 days or less, so I kept a strict regimen of charging batteries & changing them out. I eventually said, "Screw this!"

Sounds like your issue was a combination of rechargables, and a poorly made light. Because I don't remember a major company that made a single CR123 weaponlight with a laser. There were some CR2 based ones, but none that used a single CR123 based.

Also I just checked my old X300s that I haven't used in a year, they are still shining very bright.

ETA: Though apparently that will be changing, Steamlight just announced a single CR123 powered light, and light/laser WML at SHOT show. Designed to be compact enough that it doesn't add bulk to a Glock 19 sized weapon.

 

[ShaulWolf]

I'll second what PPGMD said about it being a poorly made light. Rechargeable batteries aren't always the best either, and even newer lithium rechargeable batteries can be hit or miss depending on who makes them.

That being said, I don't know what model light was used, or what batteries, but I've seen Surefire X300's, X300U's, and TLR-1HL's take beatings and keep going like nothing happened. Battery run time is still between 1-2 hours, though that's still longer for what's expected for actual use. What I do is keep one set of batteries for actual duty/carry, another set as a spare, and one set for practice. You can pick up packs of batteries for relatively low prices at Lowes or Home Depot.

 

[shafter]

I agree about the Surefires. Runtime isn't that long, but the battery will last a long time and be ready when you need it. I know a lot of guys who use them and they have the same experience. You get what you pay for in optics and lights.

 

[Sharkbite]

What ive read so far is the naysayers of WML’s, who by their own admision have never received ANY training in the PROPER use of one, continue to espouse that the improper use of one is hazardous.

I agree if used wrong, there are downsides. BUT, with proper techniques and tactics a WML offers a serious advantage to the trained user. If you augment the WML with a handheld and understand when/how to use each, its pretty impressive when on the receiving end of that lightshow.

I find the comment about the light manufactures offering training only to sell lights absolutly absurd. Smith and Wesson has had a shooting academy for years, Sig has the same (I've been to both). Just because they make guns, doesn't mean they cant teach shooting. What an asinine argument.

While the CCW/HD user may not have as much of a need as a LEO for a WML, to say its useless or detrimental is short sighted and uninformed.

 

[Bill DeShivs]

What is asinine is to think that S&W or SIG having shooting schools is not done to further gun sales. Maybe not directly, but it's certainly good PR-as is Surefire's training.

I didn't say WML are useless, but I do feel they are impractical for most civilian uses. Having a floor jack in your trunk is not useless, but it sure not as practical as a regular jack.

I am amused at people thinking they NEED a light/laser/radar/guidance system on their guns with night sights and camo paint jobs. Learn to shoot.

 

[shafter]

Sig Sauer has a reputable shooting school staffed by instructors who have experience in elite military and law enforcement organizations. There is a ton of real world experience there. There is no doubt that this is a money maker for Sig, but that doesn't change the fact that their instructors know their business.

I am amused at people thinking they NEED a light/laser/radar/guidance system on their guns with night sights and camo paint jobs. Learn to shoot.

One could say the same thing about firearms themselves and argue that you don't NEED an AR15 or a Glock. Learn to shoot. When my life is on the line I want the best technology and tactics available.

 

[PPGMD]

The training schools at companies like there to help sales, MIL/LE users require that they receive training (armorer, and transition training) with any new contract. These schools are an outgrowth of that requirement. SIG is unique that they grew it out to a general purpose training academy.

Surefire's school came with a desire to get proven reliable techniques out to their users. And in actuality you spend a vast majority of your time learning is spent on handheld lights, and general light schools. Only a fraction of the time is for weapon light specific techniques. And they even teach techniques specific for non-Surefire products like the older D cell lights, because they know that some agencies still require the use of those lights.

 

[Jeff22]

People have the most amazing excuses for not getting formal training . . . who cares if S&W Academy or the Sig Academy has selling their guns as part of their mission? I've attended classes from both organizations in the past, and they provided quality training. That's the only thing that matters.

I've attended training live fire to accustom the user to operating a weapon mounted light and laser, and I've gone to a few classes that were scenario based involving using WMLs in building searches.

As other people have noted, when you have a WML on a handgun you have to be careful where your muzzle is pointed -- searching is easier with a handheld light and shooting is easier with a WML.

When operating in a domestic defensive or law enforcement capacity having proper target identification is critical, so it's important to have a white light available to identify a threat. Engaging a burglar in your house is not exactly like house-to-house fighting in Mosul . . . .

One class I went to was a morning doing live fire on the range in low light with flashlights and WMLs and then in the afternoon we did some scenarios. They had a big variety of types of lights to try out.

Having a strobe feature on your light was popular for a while, the theory being the strobe would disorient your adversary when you shined the light in his eyes. That is true to some degree, but the strobe will also disorient YOU unless you've practiced with it a lot.

 

[Unconventional]

...a lot of blather by teenage cop wannabes...

Projection?

Let's be polite.