Weapon Mounted Light Training...

[ShaulWolf]

On the topic of the light becoming a target... yes, this is a real possibility.

If you employ a light incorrectly, it will draw attention that you don't want. You will either give away your position based on the light itself, or you will backlight yourself off of walls or cover. Again, if you use the light incorrectly.

If you use it correctly, then you minimize this significantly. Ideally, you won't have the light constantly on until you have to handle a threat. The rest of the time, you can use quick bursts of light directed at the ceiling or baseboard to illuminate an area, and direct the beam on a potential threat for a more specific search of an area or person. After the quick burst, you move, and keep moving based on the information you've learned.

This is something that needs to be practiced to understand. Correct practice is likely going to come from professional instruction, or instruction from someone with lots of knowledge and experience. You can teach yourself, but that's difficult to do, and requires more honesty and self analysis than most people will generally give themselves.

 

[stephen426]

While I tend to agree that more light is better, I think a WML should not be excessively bright. It has to be bright enough to identify the threat, but not so bright as to compromise your own night vision. Try sitting in a dark room for about 5 minutes and then hit a white wall or mirror with a 1000 lumen light. Some people's eyes adjust more quickly than others (usually age related) and you could put yourself at a serious disadvantage.

My handheld light is a Nitecore EC11 single cell CR123 that puts out 900 lumens. It has 5 brightness setting modes that reverts to what it was set on when you turn it off. It also has a strobe feature and a red "low light" mode that preserves your night vision. It is very compact, allowing for daily pocket carry. My only gripe is that there should be a safety button to prevent it from accidentally turning on since it is activated by buttons on the side of the barrel.

Glad to see that others are willing to brave the ridicule of the "just shoot at the light" crowd.

 

[James K]

It might be a good idea to ask why you are there in the dark in the first place. Let's forget military applications;; they have their own techniques and equipment and a soldier will almost never be alone. You want to illuminate a dark area you are planning to enter or are already inside and need to identify and deal with a possible (NOTE that word) threat. As I understand, the most common situation is for an armed person to enter a dark area (say a warehouse, or even ones own home) where an armed criminal MAY be present. Most of my training was long before WML's became common or even existed, but one of my instructors advised that the best approach was (when possible) to simply turn on the lights since the switch was usually right beside the door. Just make sure you were to the side of the door so you were not silhouetted in light from outside.

One problem I see (remember, I have no real world experience with WML's) is that to light up an area, you have to be pointing your weapon at it. One of the first rules of firearms safety is to not point a gun at anything you can't or won't shoot. And you are on a high adrenaline rush. If that noise is the local cat and your bullet hits a pallet of dangerous material, you better have a good reason for lighting up the place in another meaning.

I think that today an officer has a problem we didn't have or had less of then. Today, if a officer points his/her weapon at an innocent person for any reason, there can be all kinds of ramifications, even if no shots are fired. With a WML, you have to point your gun at anything you need to identify and you are one twitch of a finger away from shooting that object.

I am not against WML's, but in everything I read about them, I never see any mention of any drawbacks. They are always described as perfect for any low/no light situation. It is always assumed that an opponent will be so paralyzed by the sight of your super light that he will immediately fall down in sheer terror. But at the back of my skeptical mind is the question, "What if he doesn't?" There you are, with the only lighting in the area right in front of your face. I remain a skeptic.

Jim

 

[ShaulWolf]

I can see why one would worry about lumens, but practicing with a light would mitigate that. It won't completely eliminate the possibility of blinding yourself, but it'll reduce it. If you have concerns about removing your night vision after simply using a white light, then realize that your night vision is already gone after using even a 300 lumen white light. It becomes a moot point, and I'd rather have as much light as possible to feed my eyes the most information possible. Also think about how much worse the effect is for the person on the receiving end of that light.

Another thing to consider is the candela output of a white light. Lower lumens tend to have less reach (reflector design comes into play as well). This means that I won't be able to use that light as effectively at distance. What's a realistic distance? I don't know, each situation has its own circumstances. I don't want to limit myself though.

As for having the WML pointed at an area... A better question would be "why is my weapon out?" If you're actively using your WML, then there should be a high likelihood of having to use your firearm. Otherwise, your weapon should remain in its holster, and you should be using a handheld. The WML comes into play when you feel that you are in threat of serious bodily harm (or have to defend someone against it), and you need more light to determine who the threat is coming from, and if there is a genuine threat (PID the target).

There could be any number of scenarios where a WML is useful, though the two most common will likely be defending in your own home or in a parking lot/garage. Think of any dimly lit area, and it could be useful for maintaining light on the threat. Remember, just because one threat has ended doesn't mean that there aren't other potential threats. If the area is secure, then you can holster and go to a handheld light.

So why use a WML at all? Again, because I would rather use a two handed grip while maintaining illumination on a threat. I want to be able to remove their ability to effectively see where I am with as much light as possible, see them and the area around them, assess whether or not I need to fire/keep firing/stop firing, and scan around them and myself after. All while being able to control my firearm as effectively as possible, which is typically done with two hands. If there is no threat, then my WML does not come into play.

 

[ShaulWolf]

A good video regarding weapon lights:

https://youtu.be/e5Ii29Q89Sg

 

[Koda94]

ShaulWolf, thank you for the reply that was helpful. Ill checkbout the video later when I have time to sit down...

 

[Koda94]

JamesK, I agrre witb your comments, thats part of what im asking here... So far im not seeing a huge advantage worth investing in.

Still no reply on what a basic class drill is like.

 

[pete2]

Any light you use makes a perfect target, use any you like.

 

[PPGMD]

One problem I see (remember, I have no real world experience with WML's) is that to light up an area, you have to be pointing your weapon at it. One of the first rules of firearms safety is to not point a gun at anything you can't or won't shoot. And you are on a high adrenaline rush. If that noise is the local cat and your bullet hits a pallet of dangerous material, you better have a good reason for lighting up the place in another meaning.

It is always assumed that an opponent will be so paralyzed by the sight of your super light that he will immediately fall down in sheer terror. But at the back of my skeptical mind is the question, "What if he doesn't?" There you are, with the only lighting in the area right in front of your face. I remain a skeptic.

Again all these questions are answered with proper training. But to clear up two misconceptions.

1. Unless you are carrying a long gun, you don't search with weapon lights. Even in LE contexts unless there is an imminent threat of a gun fight, guns should be holstered and you search with a handheld light.

2. YOU DON'T JUST LEAVE THE LIGHT ON, be it weapon light or handheld. As you mentioned during a search the light is a spotlight to your location. This is literally the first rule that any modern low light training will teach you.

I am not against WML's, but in everything I read about them, I never see any mention of any drawbacks. They are always described as perfect for any low/no light situation.

Outside of weight and bulk, since they should always be IN ADDITION to a handheld light, there are few draw backs if any that are unique to weapon lights when properly employed.

 

[PPGMD]

Still no reply on what a basic class drill is like.

That is because they aren't like normal "tactical" classes. They are technique classes, with extremely low round counts, and often force on force. TBH you should already be fairly proficient with pistols and rifles before taking one.

 

[raimius]

With a WML, you have to point your gun at anything you need to identify and you are one twitch of a finger away from shooting that object.

This is generally false. Modern lights have a wide enough beam to be able to avoid this. Additionally, in smaller places (especially with light colored floors, ceilings, or walls), the reflected light from a 100+ lumen light will be enough to spot humans and give a good idea of whether they pose threat. For example, I can shine a 300lum light at the ceiling behind me and get about as much light as a 10lum mini Mag-lite would give directly, out to about 25ft.

 

[MandolinMan]

Originally Posted by James K
With a WML, you have to point your gun at anything you need to identify and you are one twitch of a finger away from shooting that object.

This is generally false. Modern lights have a wide enough beam to be able to avoid this.

Right, but it still requires unholstering your weapon. If you are in a public place this is a big problem unless you have sufficient warrant to draw in the first place.

 

[Rangerrich99]

A good video regarding weapon lights:

https://youtu.be/e5Ii29Q89Sg

I just wanted to thank you for the link to that video. It got me curious enough to watch another video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g9vc10WpRbw

Which discusses hand-held light techniques, and then another video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a3hI5fjNyI8

Which goes into WML techniques. These discussions/tutorials have definitely given me much to think about, especially about my HD tactics, if I ever was forced to move around my house looking for a potential BG. This is not something I've ever given much thought, as I always figured the dogs would take care of such things, while I hunkered comfortably in my bedroom calling 911 and pointing a shotgun at the door.

But there are times the dogs aren't home, and times when there are guests staying over (like my nephew and niece) and I'd have to move around the house to check on them, given a strange noise/alarm goes off.

One thing I do know from having taken a low-light training class recently is that I'm not nearly as fast or accurate shooting one-handed while trying to hold a flashlight. And manipulating the gun/mag changes while holding a flashlight are clumsy and also slow. And if I got into a real hurry, the chances of dropping my flashlight increase as well.

I know one thing for sure. I just ordered one of those Thyrm Switchbacks for my Streamlight to make it a lot harder to drop the thing, and a lot easier to manipulate the gun.

Thanks again.

 

[James K]

Why would you shine any light on the ceiling behind you and silhouette yourself against it? But no matter where your light is pointed, the light itself will be visible to anyone and if weapon mounted (or even head mounted, another recent fad) will be a highly visible target.

As for not leaving the light on, I agree to a point, but if you switch the light on and off, you do worse, because you then lose any night vision you may have and are effectively blind every time you turn the light on until your eyes adjust. And if you switch the light off, you can trip on something and fall, breaking your darn fool neck. As for (as someone suggested,) carrying two or more lights, I'll leave that idea for someone else to try.

I honestly hoped that someone could convince me that a WML is a good idea, and tell me how to avoid the problem(s) that seem so obvious to me. Unfortunately, none of the responses seem to be from folks who have actually used a WML iin a dangerous area, and given real thought to its use. It sounds like everyone has read the ads with the impressive picture of some model in a "star wars" uniform but few have actually done a building search with the possibility that there is real danger in the dark

As for mounted light on a concealed carry gun, that seems even more silly. The added bulk alone would make it impractical and the civilian carrying a gun for self defense is not (or should not be) searching dark areas.

Jim

 

[PPGMD]

Yes James_K knows more than experts that teach at the Surefire Institute (along with other places), instructors that typically have retired from full careers in LE and MIL. People that have been through hundreds of building searches, whose main career now is teaching classes of mostly LE and MIL instructors (very few civilian attendees to these types of classes) on low light tactics and techniques so they can go back and teach their students.

The techniques were developed by people that do this stuff for a living. And as I've mentioned many many times, are almost impossible to teach over text. They are very hard to teach over video, because cameras can't accurately simulate what it is like to actually use the techniques or being on the receiving end of them. These techniques work, all your concerns would be dealt with by the end of the week.

As far as bulk, these days lights have gotten to the point that they add very little bulk and weight to the gun. All major weaponlight companies now offer lights that are no longer the the muzzle, and no wider than the slide. Even before these lights came out I carried a P228R with a X300 very often.

 

[Bill DeShivs]

Those techniques were developed by people who SELL THE LIGHTS!
Think about that for a minute. Maybe think about it for a week if you need to.

 

[raimius]

James K, my example was talking about how much splash a modern light can give. It was not advising people to do point behind themselves in a defensive situation (works ok for power outages/finding the switch). When using a wml, you can easily see things at short range by hitting a floor, wall, or ceiling near what you need to ID and using that splash effect.

 

[PPGMD]

Those techniques were developed by people who SELL THE LIGHTS!

No, in almost every case they responded to user requests. The idea of weapon lights long existed before someone thought to make it into an off the shelf product. If you talk to the old school guys that were there before Surefire and other entered the market they will tell you about tube clamping Maglites, and later Surefire 6Ps to barrels and handguards.

But hey keep up your belief that the companies are just pushing these products because they don't live up to your of how low light shooting SHOULD work rather than how it actually does.

 

[ShaulWolf]

James and Bill sound more like people who just want to pick an argument over a personal bias than people who actually want a discussion.

I don't know how much I can stress that use of a WML will be in a lethal force encounter of some kind. It will only be used when you have your firearm ready to use. The light is going to be used to PID the target as a threat/non-threat, while giving you the ability to use a two-handed grip or manipulate things with your support hand. This is important if you have to do any sort of weapon manipulation, or deal with objects or people while still keeping your weapon at the ready. It gives you more options, rather than tying up both hands. If none of that matters to you, then fine, have at it. Meanwhile, a growing trend has been mounting WML's because they offer benefit to many in law enforcement, the military, and civilians for personal defense.

Use some common sense and logic, and try out some techniques to see how it would work and why it would work. The vast majority of everything being discussed needs to be experienced to some degree, and under some actual instruction. The youtube videos shown above are good primers and supplements, but definitely not the actual lesson.

 

[shafter]

This topic has been coming up a lot lately. While WMLs aren't usually practical for concealed carry, they absolutely offer a strong advantage should you need to use your gun in a low light situation. Especially inside the home.

First, they allow you to keep one hand free to use a phone, open a door, or a number of other things. If you end up with an intruder at gunpoint you are going to need your phone. They also allow you to maintain a proper grip on the gun, the same grip that you use at the range.

People often say that a WML requires you to point your gun at someone you may not have identified yet. This is definitely not true. If you activate your light from the low ready position it will illuminate a room enough to identify whoever is in there. The gun is still pointed at the floor. Try it. It works.

On the same note, people are often prefer to hold a hand held light away from their body because they believe the bad guy will shoot at this, and not the WML in front of their body. Again, this isn't necessarily true. No matter where you hold the light, if you are indoors, and using a bright LED, you will be illuminated anyway and bad guys aren't blind. The backsplash from the light will do this. Again, try it for yourself.

Lastly, I've heard of people carrying a WML in their pocket as a primary light. They use it like a handheld light and have the option of quickly mounting it if time permits. I don't do it myself but it's an option.