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Was the m1 carbine unique?
- Thread starter Husqvarna
- Start date
It is unique. The cartridge is the only straight wall rifle round.
The .30 Carbine cartridge is hardly the only straight wall rifle round, and in fact isn't a straight wall case at all. It tapers .023" from base to mouth.
The M1 Carbine is unique in a couple of ways, no one else fielded anything quite like it during the war, and, while never intended for frontline combat, it was very popular with combat troops, because of its size, light weight, magazine capacity, and light recoil. It was effective enough, particularly when "backed up" by other weapons, and had enough range for many combat situations.
As I recall, Audie Murphy was rather fond of his, and used it well....
ITs not a perfect rifle, but it was good enough for a lot of GIs at the time, and that creates a bond that overlooks a lot of flaws.
Straight wall means not necked. Almost all so called straight wall cartridges has some sort of taper. 9mm has 0.011", 40 sw has 0.001" , 45 acp has 0.002".The .30 Carbine cartridge is hardly the only straight wall rifle round, and in fact isn't a straight wall case at all. It tapers .023" from base to mouth.
The M1 Carbine is unique in a couple of ways, no one else fielded anything quite like it during the war, and, while never intended for frontline combat, it was very popular with combat troops, because of its size, light weight, magazine capacity, and light recoil. It was effective enough, particularly when "backed up" by other weapons, and had enough range for many combat situations.
As I recall, Audie Murphy was rather fond of his, and used it well....
ITs not a perfect rifle, but it was good enough for a lot of GIs at the time, and that creates a bond that overlooks a lot of flaws.
I wonder what other center fire straight wall rifle cartridges there are. Rifle cartridge means cartridge that was originally developed for rifle use.
-TL
"it does bear mentioning that it inspired modifying the M1 into a mag fed design instead of enblocs"
Earliest Garand concepts were mag fed. The brass thought mags were expensive, easily lost, and too complicated to work. Brass was wrong as usual, hence why they later took up the M14 instead of the BM59 as a "cheap" upgrade to their weapons stores.
TCB
Earliest Garand concepts were mag fed. The brass thought mags were expensive, easily lost, and too complicated to work. Brass was wrong as usual, hence why they later took up the M14 instead of the BM59 as a "cheap" upgrade to their weapons stores.
TCB
bamaranger
New member
carbine
Yeah, Audie Murphy liked the carbine, and as that old soldier was a rather slight of build sort of fellow, I bet the weight of weapon and ammo appealed greatly.
Here's one for you: as late as 1989, the Federal Bureau of Prisons was using the M1 carbine as its agency rifled long gun, everybody from cook to correction officer, got trained and qualed to agency standard on it.
FLETC/Glynco had a truck load of them, and many rounds of carbine ammo were shot up by BOP (and eager line instructors)!.
Yeah, Audie Murphy liked the carbine, and as that old soldier was a rather slight of build sort of fellow, I bet the weight of weapon and ammo appealed greatly.
Here's one for you: as late as 1989, the Federal Bureau of Prisons was using the M1 carbine as its agency rifled long gun, everybody from cook to correction officer, got trained and qualed to agency standard on it.
FLETC/Glynco had a truck load of them, and many rounds of carbine ammo were shot up by BOP (and eager line instructors)!.
part of the problem was the Army at that time was not teaching very good pistol combat shooting techniques. They taught mostly the off-hand (one handed) technique that was popular during that era for target shooting not combat.The other concern was that in that way, those issued pistols proved to be not quite the "dead eye dicks" of legend. Those hardy descendants of Old West gunfighters simply couldn't shoot a pistol!
2damnold4this
New member
Interesting link. I'm sure many of them used the carbine.
My apology, Peggysue. I looked it up and you are absolutely correct. The marines actually trained the army units and spear headed the landing operations. I just didn't know, now I do. Thanks.Tangolima I am upset on you questioning me...even google has info on this...My father was a Seabee and landed at N Africa to support the Marines.
-TL
I wonder what other center fire straight wall rifle cartridges there are. Rifle cartridge means cartridge that was originally developed for rifle use.
Lotsa straight walled rifle cartridges from the BP days- .45/70 (and a whole host of other 45/whatever- 60 through 110, IIRC) ...likewise the .50/90 and .50/100 ....
In more modern times, the .444 Marlin ..... doubtless there are others.
johnwilliamson062
Moderator
Or just an M1 chambered in 45 ACP. COuld still be semi-auto. Or a modified Sten. The gun isn't all that important in the logistics. Hell, think how amazing it would have been if they did a 1911 carbine conversion/variant. I just don't get introducing a new cartridge in this case. I don't think anyone else did that. Yes, the .30 Carbine has a bit of an a ballistic advantage over 45ACP, but not enough to justify it IMO.Are you thinking along the lines of the M3 submachine gun?
Besides, how much would the value of the M1 carbines increase if they were all in 45 ACP?
bamaranger
New member
carbine cartridge
The issue with the carbine has always been its cartridge. I don't have the article at my finger tips, but the entire process of adoption was differnet. And there is always the discussion on its effectiveness as a stopper, and the carbines unreliability in the cold of Korea.
To some degree the .30 carbine cartridge favors the various Win SLR cartridges. And there were some proven SLR numbers that would have likely made a better gun out of the carbine. How bout a carbine in .351 Win??? Or, if your're going to come up with something new, how 'bout a .40 carbine, or .401 SLR carbine?
But we ended up with a .30.
The issue with the carbine has always been its cartridge. I don't have the article at my finger tips, but the entire process of adoption was differnet. And there is always the discussion on its effectiveness as a stopper, and the carbines unreliability in the cold of Korea.
To some degree the .30 carbine cartridge favors the various Win SLR cartridges. And there were some proven SLR numbers that would have likely made a better gun out of the carbine. How bout a carbine in .351 Win??? Or, if your're going to come up with something new, how 'bout a .40 carbine, or .401 SLR carbine?
But we ended up with a .30.
Or just an M1 chambered in 45 ACP. COuld still be semi-auto. Or a modified Sten. The gun isn't all that important in the logistics. Hell, think how amazing it would have been if they did a 1911 carbine conversion/variant. I just don't get introducing a new cartridge in this case. I don't think anyone else did that. Yes, the .30 Carbine has a bit of an a ballistic advantage over 45ACP, but not enough to justify it IMO.
I think there was a M1911-based carbine under consideration. I have a R.L. Wilson book about Colt history, and there's a pic of a pistol with an attached shoulder stock, long slide, and the barrel protruding another eight or ten inches beyond the slide. Probably a long, ~15-round mag, too.
Model12Win
Moderator
The M1 carbine was very unique.
I don't know of any other army that fielded a gun like it. It was made to be a lightweight, low recoil, more effective replacement for a handgun and was very succesful in that role. It really was the PDW of it's day, and would still be great for some combat applications to this day. While shorter, lighter carbines for auxillary troops have been used in militaries for decades, they were usually of the same design as the general issue infantry rifle and fired the same loads/cartridges as the larger guns. The M1 carbine threw all that out the window in it's quest for efficiency.
Now the BAR, no there were plenty of contemporaries. The BREN gun comes to mind, et al. Magazine fed light machine guns designed to be man portable were nothing new by the time of WW2.
I don't know of any other army that fielded a gun like it. It was made to be a lightweight, low recoil, more effective replacement for a handgun and was very succesful in that role. It really was the PDW of it's day, and would still be great for some combat applications to this day. While shorter, lighter carbines for auxillary troops have been used in militaries for decades, they were usually of the same design as the general issue infantry rifle and fired the same loads/cartridges as the larger guns. The M1 carbine threw all that out the window in it's quest for efficiency.
Now the BAR, no there were plenty of contemporaries. The BREN gun comes to mind, et al. Magazine fed light machine guns designed to be man portable were nothing new by the time of WW2.
The M1-Carbine was brought out to replace the 1911 because it's far easier , quicker and cheaper to train an inexperienced shooter to use a rifle than it is a handgun. The idea that the U.S. was a "nation of riflemen" prior to W.W. II is a nonsensical myth. Ten years of serious economic depression and most people living in cites never saw a firearm, much less used one.
"...unreliability in the cold of Korea..." Also a myth. Troopies were nearly completely untrained and failed to maintain their weapons. The idea a quilted jacket could possibly stop a bullet is nuts. No frozen ChiCom jacket either.
"...carbines for auxiliary troops have been used in militaries for decades..." More like centuries. Carbines were cavalry weapons from the earliest use of firearms on horses. Carbines in general use/issue by the PBI, no.
"...fired the same loads/cartridges as the larger guns..." No. The Trapdoor, for example, used a 55 grain powder charge. Trust me. 70 grains of BP out of one of them hurts.
"...unreliability in the cold of Korea..." Also a myth. Troopies were nearly completely untrained and failed to maintain their weapons. The idea a quilted jacket could possibly stop a bullet is nuts. No frozen ChiCom jacket either.
"...carbines for auxiliary troops have been used in militaries for decades..." More like centuries. Carbines were cavalry weapons from the earliest use of firearms on horses. Carbines in general use/issue by the PBI, no.
"...fired the same loads/cartridges as the larger guns..." No. The Trapdoor, for example, used a 55 grain powder charge. Trust me. 70 grains of BP out of one of them hurts.