Want a SA, need advice

There is no such thing as an old model Vaquero.

Which is exactly why I always refer to the older, larger, stronger version of the Vaquero as "original model" Vaquero. If you had read my post you might have noticed that. Ruger produced the "original model" Vaquero from 1993 until 2005. In 2005 they stopped producing the "original model" Vaquero and replaced it with the New Vaquero. Rather than using a smart way to differentiate the New Vaquero from the "original model" Vaquero, as they did with their classic 22 Semi-Auto; Mark I, Mark II, Mark III, Mark IV, they decided to call it the New Vaquero, which has caused endless confusion because as you say, all Rugers with transfer bars are New Models. At the time I wondered, what are they going to call the next iteration, New and Improved? Furthermore, to further confuse things, there are a few Distributor Exclusive New Vaqueros that simply have Vaquero, not New Vaquero, stamped on the frame, despite the fact that they are clearly the smaller framed version.




the features that enhance hunting and sporting use such as adjustable sights and magnum power cartridges are not allowed in cowboy games.

I don't know how many times I have to say this, but Adjustable Sights ARE legal in SASS (Single Action Shooting Society) sponsored Cowboy Action Shooting events. Here is a quote from the Shooter's Handbook: "Original single action revolvers manufactured prior to 1899, their approved replicas, and the SASS approved single action adjustable sight revolvers are the only revolvers approved for use in SASS main match competition."

Adjustable sights put the shooter in a different category, than the fixed sight categories, but they are allowed. Being in a different category only means you are not scored with the guys shooting fixed sights. You shoot on the same posse, at the same time, the only time it matters is when the scores are tallied. Guys with Adjustable Sights are scored separately from the different fixed sight categories.




Cowboy Action shooting is a game. Like many other games that were once fun, it has been taken over by "gamers" who write rules to "enhance" the game the way they see it, not necessarily the way we would.

Rather than posting generalizations about a sport that you obviously don't care for, you might consider attending a match some time so you could get your facts straight. As I stated earlier, I have been shooting CAS for 20 years. Most of the competitors are not "gamers" they are just guys who grew up watching Westerns on TV and in the movies, and like to shoot guns typical of the Old West. CAS is not historical recreation and does not claim to be. To quote the Shooter's Handbook: "Cowboy Action Shooting is a combination of historical reenactment and Saturday morning at the matinee." Yes, Lead bullets are required and velocity is held down because we shoot at steel plates. High velocity will damage the plates, denting them, which can cause splatter to bounce back.

If you don't like CAS, that is your prerogative, but please get your facts straight.
 

BoogieMan

New member
You guys have been very helpful. I think the Blackhawk is the way to go. Like the idea of 41mag. Can I chamber any type of cheaper ammo in 41mag? The SBH is a nice setup as well. But, looks like a it runs about 6-8oz heavier on average. I get to use 44s ammo, although its not really any less expensive than 44mag. 41mag seems to be about the same price as 44M&S. I can always grab a set of dies and load away. Cant imagine shooting the volume in SA that I do in pistols. Simply takes to long to load. From teh sounds of it I can participate in CAS with the 41 on a non-sanctioned leval. Thats really all I need. My lever is 30-30 anyway.
 

Jim Watson

New member
There is nothing to shoot in a .41 Magnum like .38 Special in .357 Magnum or .44 Special in .44 Magnum guns. There is a wildcat .41 Special but you are not going to find them at the general store.

To shoot regulation CAS, you must have two revolvers and a pistol caliber rifle or carbine, also a shotgun.
Your .30-30 would not be allowed any place I have shot because it would crater or hole the mild steel targets.
 
You guys have been very helpful. I think the Blackhawk is the way to go. Like the idea of 41mag. Can I chamber any type of cheaper ammo in 41mag? The SBH is a nice setup as well. But, looks like a it runs about 6-8oz heavier on average. I get to use 44s ammo, although its not really any less expensive than 44mag. 41mag seems to be about the same price as 44M&S. I can always grab a set of dies and load away. Cant imagine shooting the volume in SA that I do in pistols. Simply takes to long to load. From teh sounds of it I can participate in CAS with the 41 on a non-sanctioned leval. Thats really all I need. My lever is 30-30 anyway.

You will need two revolvers. Some matches allow one revolver only in unofficial categories, but those matches tend to be few and far between. Also, you will have to download standard 41 Mag ammo, the velocity is too high with standard off the shelf 41 Mag. Maximum velocity for pistols is 1000 fps, maximum velocity for rifles is 1400 fps. And bullets must be lead. As I said earlier, this is so the steel plates do not get damaged.

Sorry to be the bearer of bad news, but 30-30 is not a legal rifle cartridge. Main Match rifles are restricted to cartridges commonly known as 'pistol cartridge'. 45 Colt, 44-40, 44 Magnum (loaded down from standard velocity) 44 Special, 357 Magnum (loaded down) 38 Special are a few, not all of the cartridges allowed in Main Match rifles. Sorry, them's the rules. Cartridges such as 45-70, 38-55, and 30-30 can be use in the Long Range and Single Shot competitions, but those are separate from the standard shooting that happens in a normal stage. As I am pretty sure I have said earlier, to shoot in a regular match, you need two revolvers, a rifle (chambered for a pistol cartridge, I don't think I mentioned that) and a shotgun.

Why not read all about it on the SASS Wire, where you can ask all kinds of questions?

https://forums.sassnet.com/


You can check out the Shooter's Handbook at this link:

https://www.sassnet.com/Downloads/Shooters%20Handbook%20%20Vers%2024_2%20MASTER.pdf
 

Bob Wright

New member
If I may inject some thoughts here regarding Single Action revolvers........

I had a 1975ish vintage Uberti Cattleman revolver imported by Iver Johnson. This gun had a unique safety that was every bit as goo and reliable as modern (well, older modern) Colt and Smith & Wesson revolvers. This gun had the four-click action many are so fond of, but had a steel bar in the face of the hammer. When the hammer was placed in the safety notch, the trigger sear activated and the safety bar pivoted down between the hammer face and frame, blocking any travel of the hammer to reach the primer of the cartridge. Made the hammer sort of ugly, but was a good safety that was easily applied and easily disengaged. The steel bar is just below the firing pin:

100_9984_zps8si90ewq.jpg


Most newer Ubertis have what is caled the "Swiss Safe" type safety, which is the two position base pin. This abomination is about the least practical "safety" everr devised.

Bob Wright
 
Bob Wright said:
Most newer Ubertis have what is caled the "Swiss Safe" type safety, which is the two position base pin. This abomination is about the least practical "safety" everr devised.
Useless, for all practical purposes.

However, it passes the import requirements for a safety device, and allows the action to be unmodified from the original Colt design. For that reason, I'll happily accept the base pin having an extra notch in it.
 

rclark

New member
I'll happily accept the base pin having an extra notch in it.
And you can at least 'shorten' the pin too for no safety (back to normal). My new Model P has the floating firing pin. Seems to work.... But of course would have rather had the simple original 'solid' version. <sigh> and the safety notch (not to be trusted) on the hammer... Is what it is in today's world though... Roll with it.
 
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shurshot

New member
Over the years I have owned various Virginian Dragoons, a crate full of various SA Rugers, JP Saur, Mossberg Abilenes, Uberti, Pietta, EMF Dakota's (Jager)... in .45, .44 Mag, .22 and .357. They were and are pretty cool guns. Nothing like a good single action, especially at a good price.
But now, over 3 decades later... finally getting a REAL Colt Peacemaker .45 and carrying in daily for the past 8 months or so (hammer resting on an empty chamber)... there is no comparison. Super accurate and more than enough power. Just feels right in the hand, balance is perfect. I love shooting this baby! Smart Woodchucks take cover around my place!!! Sambar stag grips replaced the factory grips, tough as nails and good lookers too.
As far as other SA revolvers? The rest are just imitations. Good imitations, yes... but still not the real thing. I still have a few of them... but they are safe queens now. Life is too short to carry a fake.
In my opinion, Nothing beats a genuine Colt. ;)
 
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44 AMP

Staff
In my opinion, Nothing beats a genuine Colt.

In my opinion, Ruger does beat a genuine Colt. But that's just me and your opinion is as valid for you as mine is for me.

After 35+ years of using a Blackhawk, Colt's seem small and fragile to me. I know they aren't but they seem that way, to me.

Friend of mine has real Colt SAAs, says Rugers are too big and clunky. The only thing that really matters is what you, personally, like best.

There are roughly two different groups of SA owners. Those who want, and prefer the original Colt look and mechanism, and those who don't care so much about that.

ALL my SA revolvers are Ruger New Models, Blackhawks, Super, original Vaqueros and a Super Single Six. Have had a New Vaquero, traded it off to someone who wanted it more than I did. I don't want any Colt or Colt clones, I'm very happy with my Rugers.

I'm not a traditionalist or purist in the field of SA revolvers. Lots of folks are, and that's fine, for them.

I don't need to pay for the Pony to get what I want. You can if you want, I'm fine with that.
 

rclark

New member
I'd jump on a 'genuine' Colt .45 Colt SAA ... if the price was inline with other six-guns. Even a little higher ... But not double/triple the price. FWIW, the Cimarron Model P 5 1/2" that I bought recently is turning out to be a very nice revolver. I wonder if it was tuned up as it has a nice ~3# pull and the timing seems right on. Throats are the right size, cylinder gap is good, barrel looks good.... and it shoots very well to POA (very very surprised). I shot 100 rounds (250g RNFP) through it and all the screws stayed put (I have a .44 Special Taylor SAA that the screws work loose right away). No leading. Feels good in the hand too. This is the first import that I've owned that I am actually impressed with. I think I got lucky.... finally :) .
 

BoogieMan

New member
No one has commented on the JP Sauer. I assume they haven't been making SA in 30 years or more. I have found a few at very reasonable price that may fulfill my need for a SA. Do they follow through with the quality of other west German guns?
 

shurshot

New member
The JP Sauer Chief Marshal .44 mag I once owned was very good quality, right up there with Ruger. Heavy frame, nice bluing. Had beautiful (Rosewood?), hardwood grips. They used to make the Powermag for Herters if I recall. Not sure about parts if you end up needing some as they haven't been made for some time as you stated.
 

jetinteriorguy

New member
First of all, I have no knowledge or experience with CAS but have a couple thoughts/questions. First thing, is a .41 mag an acceptable cartridge if loaded properly? Second thing, are Henry’s an OK rifle to use since they are available in .41 mag? My main plinking load with any 210-220 gr bullet is 8-8.4 gr of Green Dot, not sure of the MV but I’d think it would be well under 1000fps. I’ve also loaded as low as 4gr of Green Dot and it’s a real *****cat so if the caliber is allowable it could definitely be loaded down to qualify. My point being with the right components the .41 mag is a very versatile caliber and I don’t recall where I saw it but I know the softer CAS type bullets are available. But like most things .41 mag, being a hand loader is what makes a great cartridge most usable from an economical standpoint.
 

zoo

Moderator
CAS should have a scenario where one must shoot across a table while seated for accuracy with a Ruger Bearcat 3.5 Shopkeeper or similar.
 
For anyone interested, here's the link to the SASS rule book. There's a section in the rules covering equipment.

Good luck trying to figure out what you want to know from the Shooter's Handbook. I have been shooting CAS for almost 20 years and still have to search through multiple pages to find exactly what I want to know. Good luck to a Newbie.

First of all, I have no knowledge or experience with CAS but have a couple thoughts/questions. First thing, is a .41 mag an acceptable cartridge if loaded properly? Second thing, are Henry’s an OK rifle to use since they are available in .41 mag? My main plinking load with any 210-220 gr bullet is 8-8.4 gr of Green Dot, not sure of the MV but I’d think it would be well under 1000fps. I’ve also loaded as low as 4gr of Green Dot and it’s a real *****cat so if the caliber is allowable it could definitely be loaded down to qualify. My point being with the right components the .41 mag is a very versatile caliber and I don’t recall where I saw it but I know the softer CAS type bullets are available. But like most things .41 mag, being a hand loader is what makes a great cartridge most usable from an economical standpoint.


Here is the Shooter's Handbook definition of what makes an acceptable revolver cartridge in CAS.

"Must be centerfire calibers of at least .32 caliber and no larger than .45 caliber or percussion calibers of at least .36 caliber and no larger than .45 caliber. Must be in a caliber commonly available in revolvers. Examples include, but are not limited to, .32-20, .32 Magnum, .357 Magnum, .38 Special, .44 Magnum, .44-40, and .45 Colt."

Notice the examples listed are not a finite list, just a few obvious ones. Also notice it does not say acceptable cartridges must have been in existence during the 19th Century. 44 Mag and 357 Mag did not exist in the 19th Century. So yes, 41 Mag would be acceptable as a revolver cartridge as long as it was loaded with lead bullets and velocity was under 1000 fps. (under 1400 fps when fired from a rifle) Those are the general rules for the least restrictive categories. As categories change, ammo requirements can get more restrictive, for instance all cartridges must be at least 40 caliber in the Classic Cowboy category. That means no 38s in that category, but 38-40 is actually 40 caliber, so it is OK in Classic Cowboy. Too much information, I know, but I have been doing this for a long time.



Here is the Shooter's Handbook definition of Main Match rifles:

"Rifles or carbines used in the main and team matches must be original or replicas of lever or slide action rifles manufactured during the period from approximately 1860 until 1899, incorporating a tubular magazine and exposed hammer. Rifles with box magazines may not be used. Certain shooting categories require a specific type of rifle and ammunition to be used."

Here is the information about Main Match rifle ammunition. (When it says Main Match, that is what we are talking about, not the 'specialty' events such as long range precision rifle matches. Those are different events and do not usually happen at a regular monthly match)

"Must be centerfire of at least .32 caliber and not larger than .45 caliber. Must be in a caliber commonly available in revolvers. Examples include, but are not limited to, .32-20, .32 Magnum, .357 Magnum, .38 Special, .38-40, .44-40, .44 Special, .44 Magnum, and .45 Colt. The only allowed exceptions are the .25-20 and .56-50. No rifle calibers such as .30-30 or .38-55 are allowed. Buckaroo/Buckarette Category competitors choosing to utilize .22 caliber firearms must use standard velocity .22 caliber rim-fire ammunition only."

Notice it says cartridges commonly available in revolvers. That's why we call them 'pistol caliber' rifles. Cartridges such as 30-30, which will not fit in a typical revolver cylinder, are not allowed in Main Match rifles.

When you ask about a Henry rifle, particularly one chambered for 41 Mag, I assume you are talking about the Big Boy. When the Big Boy first came out it was not approved as a SASS legal rifle. There were those who said with its brass frame it looked just like a Winchester Model 1866, so it should be allowed. There were others, myself included, who said no way, even with its brass frame the Big Boy was not a reasonable replica of the Winchester 1866. To make matters worse, Henry Repeating Arms began promoting the Big Boy as a SASS approved rifle when in fact the Territorial Governors had not made a ruling on it, so there was a lot of confusion. A couple of years later the TGs revisited the question and specifically included the Big Boy as a SASS legal Main Match rifle, however it is not legal in the Classic Cowboy category. Frankly, there are much better choices of rifles for CAS than the Big Boy. Yes, I have fired one. They are heavier than most other rifles, and do not always function very smoothly. But if you are wedded to using 41 Mag, it is the only rifle I am aware of chambered for the cartridge.

By the way, there is nothing saying you revolvers and rifle have to be chambered for the same cartridge. I have been shooting 45 Colt in my revolvers and 44-40 in my rifles for years. I just have to pay attention not to try to stuff 45s into my 44-40 rifle, which would leave me in a heck of a fix.

If you consider a different caliber for your rifle, it opens up a lot more possibilities than the Big Boy. At one time Marlin was chambering their Model 1894 for 41 Mag, but not anymore.
 
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44caliberkid

New member
Driftwood, thanks for backing me up on the existence of an old model Vaquero. Feel free to refer to them as the "original " Vaqueros, but any aftermarket manufacturer making stuff for Ruger SA's, especially grips, lists them as old model Vaquero. The original (old) model Vaquero was offered in 44 Magnum, which the NM Vaquero is not. 44 magnum lets you use a wide variety of ammo from 44 magnum cowboy loads to the fastest 300 grain hardcast. And you can still buy 44 Magnum, unlike most auto pistol calibers.
 

44 AMP

Staff
Calling Vaqueros "original" is the best way to differentiate them from the New Vaquero, and it avoids confusion with the "old model" Ruger Blackhawk's Colt style operation.

The guns themselves have their names on them, under the frame window on the left side. The Vaquero says "Ruger Vaquero" and the new Vaquero says "New Vaquero".

Aftermarket makers can call their parts anything they want, they make them, they get to name them. Doesn't mean they are correct. Sometimes, a technically incorrect name is deliberately used so that customers who don't know the correct terms will be able to identify and buy their product.

Some sellers identified their magazines as "clips" intentionally, knowing the difference but listing them as clips boosted sales, so they went with it.

Common conversation uses a lot of misapplied terms, which is of no big concern in common conversation but can be entirely wrong when the subject is technical.

What's under the hood of your car? A motor? or an engine? Doesn't matter when you're just chatting, sure matters when you go to buy a part...:rolleyes:
 

jetinteriorguy

New member
Good luck trying to figure out what you want to know from the Shooter's Handbook. I have been shooting CAS for almost 20 years and still have to search through multiple pages to find exactly what I want to know. Good luck to a Newbie.




Here is the Shooter's Handbook definition of what makes an acceptable revolver cartridge in CAS.

"Must be centerfire calibers of at least .32 caliber and no larger than .45 caliber or percussion calibers of at least .36 caliber and no larger than .45 caliber. Must be in a caliber commonly available in revolvers. Examples include, but are not limited to, .32-20, .32 Magnum, .357 Magnum, .38 Special, .44 Magnum, .44-40, and .45 Colt."

Notice the examples listed are not a finite list, just a few obvious ones. Also notice it does not say acceptable cartridges must have been in existence during the 19th Century. 44 Mag and 357 Mag did not exist in the 19th Century. So yes, 41 Mag would be acceptable as a revolver cartridge as long as it was loaded with lead bullets and velocity was under 1000 fps. (under 1400 fps when fired from a rifle) Those are the general rules for the least restrictive categories. As categories change, ammo requirements can get more restrictive, for instance all cartridges must be at least 40 caliber in the Classic Cowboy category. That means no 38s in that category, but 38-40 is actually 40 caliber, so it is OK in Classic Cowboy. Too much information, I know, but I have been doing this for a long time.



Here is the Shooter's Handbook definition of Main Match rifles:

"Rifles or carbines used in the main and team matches must be original or replicas of lever or slide action rifles manufactured during the period from approximately 1860 until 1899, incorporating a tubular magazine and exposed hammer. Rifles with box magazines may not be used. Certain shooting categories require a specific type of rifle and ammunition to be used."

Here is the information about Main Match rifle ammunition. (When it says Main Match, that is what we are talking about, not the 'specialty' events such as long range precision rifle matches. Those are different events and do not usually happen at a regular monthly match)

"Must be centerfire of at least .32 caliber and not larger than .45 caliber. Must be in a caliber commonly available in revolvers. Examples include, but are not limited to, .32-20, .32 Magnum, .357 Magnum, .38 Special, .38-40, .44-40, .44 Special, .44 Magnum, and .45 Colt. The only allowed exceptions are the .25-20 and .56-50. No rifle calibers such as .30-30 or .38-55 are allowed. Buckaroo/Buckarette Category competitors choosing to utilize .22 caliber firearms must use standard velocity .22 caliber rim-fire ammunition only."

Notice it says cartridges commonly available in revolvers. That's why we call them 'pistol caliber' rifles. Cartridges such as 30-30, which will not fit in a typical revolver cylinder, are not allowed in Main Match rifles.

When you ask about a Henry rifle, particularly one chambered for 41 Mag, I assume you are talking about the Big Boy. When the Big Boy first came out it was not approved as a SASS legal rifle. There were those who said with its brass frame it looked just like a Winchester Model 1866, so it should be allowed. There were others, myself included, who said no way, even with its brass frame the Big Boy was not a reasonable replica of the Winchester 1866. To make matters worse, Henry Repeating Arms began promoting the Big Boy as a SASS approved rifle when in fact the Territorial Governors had not made a ruling on it, so there was a lot of confusion. A couple of years later the TGs revisited the question and specifically included the Big Boy as a SASS legal Main Match rifle, however it is not legal in the Classic Cowboy category. Frankly, there are much better choices of rifles for CAS than the Big Boy. Yes, I have fired one. They are heavier than most other rifles, and do not always function very smoothly. But if you are wedded to using 41 Mag, it is the only rifle I am aware of chambered for the cartridge.

By the way, there is nothing saying you revolvers and rifle have to be chambered for the same cartridge. I have been shooting 45 Colt in my revolvers and 44-40 in my rifles for years. I just have to pay attention not to try to stuff 45s into my 44-40 rifle, which would leave me in a heck of a fix.

If you consider a different caliber for your rifle, it opens up a lot more possibilities than the Big Boy. At one time Marlin was chambering their Model 1894 for 41 Mag, but not anymore.
Thanks for your nicely detailed answer. That’s pretty much the way I interpreted things after reading the rules. I’m actually referring to a Big Boy Steel version, not the brass receiver version. I was mostly curious from the standpoint of the OP having this option, I myself have no particular interest in CAS.
 

Bob Wright

New member
As to J.P. Sauer & Sohn, they sold off their Single Action business to Weirich (?) and have joined with the firm of Sig to become Sig Sauer. Weirich, as I understand it, still makes the Single Action revolver under the name of the Great Western II. So far as I know, replacement parts are available from Numrich (Gun Parts Corp.). Some parts I know of, the trigger guard and backstrap, are interchangeable with Uberti guns, though monor fitting may be required.

Bob Wright
 
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