armoredman
New member
Find an old movie called Deadly Weapons, lots of car penetration tests, winshield and door, with a wide variety of firearms, and these are 70s era cars. Amazing how many made it through. The ending of the movie is a blast.
Wanna see car door; car window penetration tests?
- Thread starter DG45
- Start date
Tactical Jackalope
New member
DG45
Ok ok ok.....So wait, you're saying that hollow points are no good? Not even for carry against a perpetrator? Why would 99.9% of Police Departments and Government agencies carry hollow points then?
Ok ok ok.....So wait, you're saying that hollow points are no good? Not even for carry against a perpetrator? Why would 99.9% of Police Departments and Government agencies carry hollow points then?
Years ago there was probably some truth to that.
In more recent times, most premium self-defense handgun ammo in calibers above .380ACP is designed to expand AND meet FBI penetration testing criteria.
That means that even after going through a window, a simulated interior wall or a simulated car door (etc. --there are a number of different individual penetration tests in the overall FBI testing process and I don't remember them all off the top of my head) the ammunition will still penetrate between 12" and 18" in ballistic gelatin.
So you don't have to choose between expansion and penetration if you're using a caliber that is 9mm or up. You can have both.
Penatrating cars
I'm giving my age away but when the first Dirty Harry movie came out I had to have a Mod 29. I took my new 29 and a box of 240 factory bullets down to the dump. I snuck up on a 4 door 55 Studebaker and cut loose.The Bullet went through the trunk,through a metal partition beteen the back seat and trunk , through both the rear and front seat , it hit the steering wheel almost dead center knocking the steering wheel almost off , the bullet continued through the metal dashboard and metal firewall tearing off a bunch of small items , hit the hood and put a foot long crease down the hood, busted through the frame that held the radiator and came to a rest making a bump on the front of the car. I know it was a straight on shot and maybe from different angle the bullet could have glanced off but for that shot anyone driving that car would have been seriously injured.
Some car restorer is going to read this and want to kick my Butt. I only did it once.
I'm giving my age away but when the first Dirty Harry movie came out I had to have a Mod 29. I took my new 29 and a box of 240 factory bullets down to the dump. I snuck up on a 4 door 55 Studebaker and cut loose.The Bullet went through the trunk,through a metal partition beteen the back seat and trunk , through both the rear and front seat , it hit the steering wheel almost dead center knocking the steering wheel almost off , the bullet continued through the metal dashboard and metal firewall tearing off a bunch of small items , hit the hood and put a foot long crease down the hood, busted through the frame that held the radiator and came to a rest making a bump on the front of the car. I know it was a straight on shot and maybe from different angle the bullet could have glanced off but for that shot anyone driving that car would have been seriously injured.
Some car restorer is going to read this and want to kick my Butt. I only did it once.
I've put several rounds into a late 90's Ford Explorer. One went through the front pillar through the seats and out the tailgate with no problems. Also put rounds into a Dodge Ram van and a F350 ambulance. I wouldn't hide behind any of them.
**Edited to add that all of the above was with .40 S&W.**
**Edited to add that all of the above was with .40 S&W.**
Charger Fan
New member
You're ok, it was a 4-door.
LOL!warningshot
New member
Hey Dude! That was my car!
I was out salvaging antiques and you didn't see me. Thanks alot for blasting my wheels, man.
And yew, sir, in the back row; you would like to bid on the AZ beach front property?
I was out salvaging antiques and you didn't see me. Thanks alot for blasting my wheels, man.
And yew, sir, in the back row; you would like to bid on the AZ beach front property?
cougar gt-e
New member
Can't speak to 1/4", but I know for a fact that a 30-06 will blow big honk'n holes through 1/2" mild steel plate. It will do it so well that the plate doesn't even hardly rock. I thought ***?? the plate isn't being knocked over, yet it looks like there's a mark on it... well, the "mark" was a hole blown clean through. THAT really drove home the difference between "cover" and "concealment" and how the 30-06 has been demonstrating it for over 100 years!!!! I mean seriously, a 1/2 inch plate of steel!
Cougar gt-e, you make an important point and it far outshadows my point about ball ammo vs. hollowpoint in a handgun, but it's basically the same point. This is a handgun forum but I'm glad you posted about 30-06.
What I'd like to see is some actual evidence to prove or disprove my belief that rapid and great hollowpoint expansion of handgun ammunition is so detrimental to bullet penetration that it actually lowers the odds of the shooters survival in a gunfight where cars are used as protection. After all, it is very common for cars or car doors to be used as shields, and I'm not as sure as some posters are that its bad cover; certainly I'd think its better than no cover at all. And if a police officer is involved, I'd hope he'd have the added advantage of a bullet proof vest, so hopefully, he'd have better defensive protection than the BG. But offensive power is the issue here. What bullet is gonna GET THERE through a car door or a car window? Assuming all else is equal, if one party is shooting hollow points and the other party is shooting ball ammo that will pentrate better, my guess is that whoever's bullets get through the obstacles with enough power left over to get to the vitals of their opponent is the person most likely to survive the battle, and I don't think that'll be the hollow points. But I'm open to being proved wrong. I'd just like to see some apples-to-apples tests. (But what I'm saying about handgun penetration goes in spades for a 30-06. It's going to penetrate better than any handgun, even with hollowpoint bullets. So unless you have no choice whatever, or a real death wish, don't ever take on a 30-06 with a handgun.)
What I'd like to see is some actual evidence to prove or disprove my belief that rapid and great hollowpoint expansion of handgun ammunition is so detrimental to bullet penetration that it actually lowers the odds of the shooters survival in a gunfight where cars are used as protection. After all, it is very common for cars or car doors to be used as shields, and I'm not as sure as some posters are that its bad cover; certainly I'd think its better than no cover at all. And if a police officer is involved, I'd hope he'd have the added advantage of a bullet proof vest, so hopefully, he'd have better defensive protection than the BG. But offensive power is the issue here. What bullet is gonna GET THERE through a car door or a car window? Assuming all else is equal, if one party is shooting hollow points and the other party is shooting ball ammo that will pentrate better, my guess is that whoever's bullets get through the obstacles with enough power left over to get to the vitals of their opponent is the person most likely to survive the battle, and I don't think that'll be the hollow points. But I'm open to being proved wrong. I'd just like to see some apples-to-apples tests. (But what I'm saying about handgun penetration goes in spades for a 30-06. It's going to penetrate better than any handgun, even with hollowpoint bullets. So unless you have no choice whatever, or a real death wish, don't ever take on a 30-06 with a handgun.)
Winchester_73
New member
If anything, I would think a 460 S&W could, the fastest production handgun bullet ever at 2300+ fps.
Here's a neat gun. This was one of the guns captured from the Dillinger gang. It's a pre war 1911 38 super with modifications. Supposedly they had it to pierce car doors and body armor, if needed. It also is said to be full auto.
Read up on the FBI testing protocol for ammunition. They test for exactly the kind of performance you're talking about. If a particular loading meets the FBI specifications then you can be reasonably certain that it will get through common obstacles and still penetrate 12" to 18".
http://greent.com/40Page/general/fbitest.htm
Test results are available online for some ammunition and I suspect that if you contact a manufacturer you could probably get information on their products. I also suspect that any major law enforcement organization has made their ammunition selection based on the FBI test results so that's another way to find out which loads qualify.
The bottom line is that hollowpoint ammunition in calibers above 9mm CAN be designed such that it is capable of penetrating common intermediate barriers while still providing at least 12" of penetration. My guess would be that any premium self-defense expanding ammunition from a major ammunition manufacturer will pass those tests. To be clear, in my opinion, that would specifically exclude "specialty shop"/"boutique" ammunition as well as "specialty" ammunition (e.g. Glaser ) that is designed for explosive expansion.
Some 1st hand knowledge
Okay guys here goes. I have a Ford F350 crew cab pu with 8ft bed. I bought it used and there is a .45 caliber hole through both sides of the tailgate, through the back of the cab and you can see the dimple and feel the bullet under the leather of the rear seat covering.
I asked the dealer when I bought it what the heck the hole in the tailgate was from. So he had the whole story.
My truck was reposessed by Ford Credit from the original purchaser. It seems the guy really didn't want to lose his truck.
I sure don't wanting anyone shooting at me through a single sheet metal panel in a door even if the window is rolled down
Okay guys here goes. I have a Ford F350 crew cab pu with 8ft bed. I bought it used and there is a .45 caliber hole through both sides of the tailgate, through the back of the cab and you can see the dimple and feel the bullet under the leather of the rear seat covering.
I asked the dealer when I bought it what the heck the hole in the tailgate was from. So he had the whole story.
My truck was reposessed by Ford Credit from the original purchaser. It seems the guy really didn't want to lose his truck.
I sure don't wanting anyone shooting at me through a single sheet metal panel in a door even if the window is rolled down
Well the FBI protocol doesn't involve a car door but it would provide some interesting comparison data if the results of tests using those protocols were actually availiable. Does anyone have any results using the FBI protocol or know where to find them on the internet? Seems strange that they'd publish the protocol but not the results they obtained using them. I'd have thought that would be very useful information for all LE agencies.
I wouldn't bet that any particular ammo manufacturer met the FBI protocol standards unless they specifically claimed to. Most ammo boxes I've seen report the velocity, nothing more. Most don't even report the barrel length used to achieve the reported velocity.
Re: the bullet through the truck story, I'm assuming the bullet was not a hollowpoint round since it was described as leaving a 45 cal. hole in the truck. But thats ok with me. That kind of penetration with a 45 cal hole is why the gun on my bedside table is a 45 revolver loaded with 255 grain SWCs. I'm like the basketball coach who liked tall players because when everyone else was too tired to jump they were still tall. I like 45 hard cast, SWC, or or ball bullets because when the hollow points stop, they are still going strong and still making a 45 cal. hole.
I wouldn't bet that any particular ammo manufacturer met the FBI protocol standards unless they specifically claimed to. Most ammo boxes I've seen report the velocity, nothing more. Most don't even report the barrel length used to achieve the reported velocity.
Re: the bullet through the truck story, I'm assuming the bullet was not a hollowpoint round since it was described as leaving a 45 cal. hole in the truck. But thats ok with me. That kind of penetration with a 45 cal hole is why the gun on my bedside table is a 45 revolver loaded with 255 grain SWCs. I'm like the basketball coach who liked tall players because when everyone else was too tired to jump they were still tall. I like 45 hard cast, SWC, or or ball bullets because when the hollow points stop, they are still going strong and still making a 45 cal. hole.
That's the most realistic statement on this subject out there.
I learn then teaching sniper schools both for the NG & LE. We shot just about everything imagined. Not just auto glass but normal house windows also. We shot them all. Even standard 38s may or may not penetrate a car door. Depends on the angle, what it hits, (lots of weird stuff in a car door...same with other parts of the car.
Even tires. One of the classes I've taken over the years (don't remember which one) The FBI reported doing a test by shooting an airplane tire with an '06. It penetrated and the plane was only able to make about 7-8 more takeoffs and landings before the tire went flat.
You can shoot cars & windows all day long, its fun I agree, but the only thing you're gonna learn is the results are unpredictable.
Again I'd encourage folks to look over the material on shooting through car doors, auto glass, etc. at the box o truth.
http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/thebuickotruth.htm
tipoc
http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/thebuickotruth.htm
tipoc
I used to do a little shooting on old strip mines. One had an old concrete block building with a steel door, perhaps 1/4-inch thick. As near as I remember (this was around 1970), I fired at it with a .38 S&W (not special) and plain lead bullets. The bullets might as well have been chocolate, they way they performed but they at least left a mark on the door. But some other time I was doing something similiar with a jacketed bullet, either hollow point or soft point, and the bullet flattened, with the jacket separating and leaving a nice star shaped bit of copper. No damage to the target.
Test 3 of the protocol is specifically designed to duplicate shooting through a car door.
Two pieces of 20 gauge, hot rolled steel with a galvanized finish are set three inches apart. ... The steel used is the heaviest gauge steel commonly found in automobile doors. This test simulates the weakest part of a car door. In all car doors, there is an area, or areas, where the heaviest obstacle is nothing more that two pieces of 20 gauge steel.
Some of the results are available online. Here are a few links I found in a couple of minutes or so of searching.
http://demigodllc.com/~zak/firearms/fbi-pistol.php
http://www.firearmstactical.com/ammo_data/ammodata.htm
http://www.allbusiness.com/crime-law-enforcement-corrections/law/8915586-1.html
If you poke around you can find other results as well.
Most ammo boxes I've seen don't even list the velocity. If you want that kind of information you need to go to the manufacturer's data either online or in a published catalog. OR if you can find it, to testing results from a third party.
You're not going to find that out by looking on a box of ammunition. I can't recall ever seeing a box of ammunition that quoted penetration specs and certainly not one that listed FBI testing results or that claimed to meet FBI specs.
If you're looking at boxes of ammunition and trying to figure out from that which ones meet the FBI specs you're wasting your time.
Sheet steel typically won't cause a hollowpoint bullet to expand although it might cause it to deform somewhat. I wouldn't expect to be able to tell much about a design of a bullet based on the hole it punched through a piece (or pieces) of sheet steel.
DG45,
I'm not sure either if you are going to find some of the info that you are looking for. This is mostly due to the many variables involved. But some you can glean from what info is available.
First, because JHP is designed to expand and limit penetration through things like human bodies, interior and exterior building walls and auto bodies, so when it does expand it penetrates less than ball. When it does not expand it acts like ball ammo and will penetrates like ball. It is because it does expand and still penetrates to enough of a depth that JHP ammo is the dominant ammo used in law enforcement today.
It limits penetration but does not stop it. A round of JHP will penetrate truck and auto doors and windshields, etc. Even .22 lr rifle rounds will penetrate most auto door panels, if they don't strike a brace, window motor, etc.
If you do want to shoot through trucks and autos, exterior walls, etc. than ball ammo is the way to go.
tipoc
I'm not sure either if you are going to find some of the info that you are looking for. This is mostly due to the many variables involved. But some you can glean from what info is available.
First, because JHP is designed to expand and limit penetration through things like human bodies, interior and exterior building walls and auto bodies, so when it does expand it penetrates less than ball. When it does not expand it acts like ball ammo and will penetrates like ball. It is because it does expand and still penetrates to enough of a depth that JHP ammo is the dominant ammo used in law enforcement today.
It limits penetration but does not stop it. A round of JHP will penetrate truck and auto doors and windshields, etc. Even .22 lr rifle rounds will penetrate most auto door panels, if they don't strike a brace, window motor, etc.
If you do want to shoot through trucks and autos, exterior walls, etc. than ball ammo is the way to go.
tipoc
To: JohnKsa, I agree that one of the FBI protocols you furnished was their attempt to approximate a car door, so we know what the methodology of their test is, but no results of the tests are shown so we don't know what kind of guns, bullets, barrel lengths, etc. would achieve what kind of results using that protocol. It does provide the information for how to do the test for anybody who wants to use it. I appreciate the information, and I may try setting up the test with 38 Special and maybe a couple of other calibers that I own one day (if I can't find some already existing info). Anyway my thanks for your help.
To: Tiploc, the Box of Truth figures are interesting but appear to only be designed to show that a car door isn't great protection, not to measure the difference in effectiveness of a wide range of ammo and bullet types against a door. Their demo shows only the results of 40 cal ball; 9mm ball, and something called a 45 flying ashtray which I think must be a hollow point of some type. What I had hoped to find or else encourage someone to test is a whole range of ammo and bullet types, and get some apples to apples comparisons betweeen different loads of the same caliber, and then be able to comare that to different loads used in other calibers.
But I do appreciate your response to the thread and the information you've furnished. Thank You.
In fact I appeciate all the responses and thank everyone who has tried to help.
To: Tiploc, the Box of Truth figures are interesting but appear to only be designed to show that a car door isn't great protection, not to measure the difference in effectiveness of a wide range of ammo and bullet types against a door. Their demo shows only the results of 40 cal ball; 9mm ball, and something called a 45 flying ashtray which I think must be a hollow point of some type. What I had hoped to find or else encourage someone to test is a whole range of ammo and bullet types, and get some apples to apples comparisons betweeen different loads of the same caliber, and then be able to comare that to different loads used in other calibers.
But I do appreciate your response to the thread and the information you've furnished. Thank You.
In fact I appeciate all the responses and thank everyone who has tried to help.
"Flying ashtray" was the nickname given to CCI/Blazer's 200 grain JHP .45acp round. It got this name because the hollow of the bullet tip was particular large. They no longer produce this particular bullet.
This site may also provide some useful info...
http://brassfetcher.com/
Also look at the info at their old site...
http://www.brassfetcher.com/oldindex.html
tipoc
This site may also provide some useful info...
http://brassfetcher.com/
Also look at the info at their old site...
http://www.brassfetcher.com/oldindex.html
tipoc