Wanna see car door; car window penetration tests?

[DG45]

I was reading a post on one of TFL's forums and the OP was mentioning that his "38" wouldn't penetrate a car door, but his "32" revolver would.

I suspected that the 38 he was using was one of the weak sister 38 calibers; not a 38 Special, and that the 32 was a 32-20.

Then another member and I started discussing car doors, and car doors are steel-reinforced these days well beyond the almost beer-can thin doors that used to be on some imports. We figured that depending on where you hit it, a 357 might have trouble penetrating a modern car door, particularly if there was a car window down in the door.

Does anybody know if there are any halfway scientific (?) You Tube videos demo-ing how well different calibers fired in different barrel length guns penetrate car doors and/or car windows?

Anybody ever try this with just your own gun? With what results?

I think it would be cool to see comparisons using different barrel lengths and bullet types. For example, 38 Special Snub nose using a lightweight standard velocity hollow point vs. 38 Special standard velocity 158 ball in 6" barrel. Then the same tests using 38 Special +P ammo. Then the same tests using 357s. Then maybe a 44. or 45 revolver. Then some autos; maybe 380, 9x18mm, 9mm, 40cal., and 45 cal.

 

[Steven_Seagal]

I spoke to a guy who was standing next to me at a Phish concert once and he showed me a .380 wound in his stomach. He was at a stop light in Oakland and was shot by a gang member in an adjacent car. the .380 went through his door (he was in the back seat of a honda civic, I believe) and entered his abdomen from the side and exited through another part of his abdomen, about six inches away. missed all vital innards, as he was a little on the hefty side. not super fat, but definitely what we would consider overweight. he was about 5'9'' and about 180-190 lbs.

this was his story, and wounds were consistent with his story. It was definitely a .380, according to him. take it for what it's worth

 

[SPUSCG]

go over to the box o truth

 

[Steven_Seagal]

not quite about car doors, but some good bullet penetration test in the article.

http://www.gunsamerica.com/blog/triggernometry-home-bullet-penetration/

 

[IMightBeWrong]

There's a youtube account called gunwebsites that has a windshield test fired from inside a car. It showed that anything under 9mm that they tested would stray off by at least a couple of inches before hitting a target about 7 yards away if I remember right. I don't know of any car door tests, but I met a guy out off table mesa road in Arizona who shot his truck through the walls of the bed with both a .357 mag and a .223 and the .223 went through one side of the bed and dented the inside of the other whereas the .357 penetrated all the way through both sides.

 

[Six_Rounds]

I know for a fact that just about any .38spl round out of a 2" snub will penetrate the body sheet metal of a 60's era car, and it will usually penetrate through at least one piece of the thicker door frame metal in addition to both sides of the sheet metal. I tested this with Remington, winchester, and American Eagle 130gr FMJ (the last one of which will also completely penetrate one side of the hull of a fiberglass boat too), Federal Nyclad 125gr hollowpoints, and mid range 158gr LRN bullets.

Those same .38 special Nyclads will however be stopped by the metal backplate of a cheap Coby MP3 player (Ipod knockoff), if the MP3 player has something behind it to absorb the impact, like modeling clay or a person, for example.

Bullets are funny like that.

 

[Coltman 77]

Quote:

go over to the box o truth

+1

Great info. there.

 

[carguychris]

Then another member and I started discussing car doors, and car doors are steel-reinforced these days well beyond the almost beer-can thin doors that used to be on some imports.

Automotive sheetmetal today is generally a lot thinner than it was in the 60s and before. Yes, it's thicker than what was used on some early 70s imports that would dent if you breathed on them wrong (and rust if you spoke the word "SALT" too loudly ), but it's not very thick historically.

Government fuel economy standards and/or buyer preference for more fuel-efficient vehicles have pushed carmarkers to cut unnecessary weight throughout most of their products, including ones that are pretty heavy to begin with, and door sheetmetal is a prime target for weight reduction because it doesn't usually serve any other purpose than supporting itself. Yes, many cars have been getting heavier, but that weight isn't in the exterior sheetmetal.

Yes, doors have side-impact beams nowadays, but a quick look inside the door of a modern vehicle reveals that you're fairly unlikely to hit one with a random shot. They're usually pretty skinny, and there's usually no more than 2 of them.

FWIW police penetration requirements generally date from the 30s gangster era when car bodies were made of steel that was easily twice as thick as today. To give you a real-world example, IIRC in 1933, two Dallas County, TX sheriff's deputies ambushed Clyde Barrow in a '32 Ford and hosed the car down with a pair of Thompson M1928s loaded with .45ACP ammo that I presume to be 230gr GI FMJ hardball because they got it from the National Guard. The shots DID NOT PENETRATE the car body, they only dented it.

 

[Borch]

I work for a LAWE agency and we have a patrol car door, 2008 Crown Vic, that was shot up with different calibers to demonstrate how poor of a shield a car door is. 9 mm, .40 cal, .357, .38 special, .223, 12 ga 4 buck and 00 buck, .380 ACP, .45 ACP...they all went through.

The .380 shooting ball ammo went through the door skin, the steel frame and the interior panel and embedded 4" into the railroad tie backstop.

 

[Nnobby45]

I was reading a post on one of TFL's forums and the OP was mentioning that his "38" wouldn't penetrate a car door, but his "32" revolver would.

A .38 won't penetrate a car door no matter how hard you throw it. Dent, yes. Penetrate, no. Same for the .32.

OK, I'm sounding like a smart a#$, but the design of the bullet will determine penetratiion. And yes, velocity is important, also.

Fire an HE round at a tank, and it won't penetrate. Anti-tank AP round---yes.

 

[pythagorean]

Good post here. Lots of folks don't know how easy a windshield can deflect or stop bullets. Buckshot is often purported to be the "real deal" however in the Newhall Incident a few decades ago two officers lost their lives when their 12 gauge issued (9 pellet) buckshot FAILED to stop the perp and he WAS hit with one of those pellets smack in the forehead (after the entire shell was stopped by a windshield).

Go to it you shotgun home defense fans and think again. You're better off using a rifle.

 

[defjon]

Having stumbled upon an old wrecked car in the woods once many years ago, me and three buddies did a little testing to see what the ammo we had on us would do. 130 grain FMJ 38 special, winchester white box, will penetrate car doors, so will 380 FMJ. I believe it was mag tech, and I want to say 90 grain. It was awhile ago.

 

[Pinky Carruthers]

Go to it you shotgun home defense fans and think again. You're better off using a rifle.

I doubt I will ever have to shoot a car INSIDE my home with a shotgun.

 

[warningshot]

GrandPa says....

Becareful boys it's illegal to shoot at automobiles anywhere and anytime in 25 out of 50 States in the Union.

I don't know or care much if it is or is not; I'll keep testing. Now...

A.) The more you connect lead with something like a car door the more the metal is fatiged and the next hits penetrates better.
B.) When the window is down a first shot penetration trail with 35 cal.s pistol is unlikely.
C.) Car doors may or may not work as cover, but they work real well as concealment. And concealment works both ways.

Newhall: 3 out of the 4 Patrolmen were killed by gunfire while the Patrolmen were using the Unit has CC.

Bank of America, LA, shootout...BG shot ~1,000 rounds, GG fired ~same amount back. Both sides used cars alot.

Miami Dade, BGs had a +100% better hit factor.

End Result: The bullet path shooting into cars and shooting thru glass is unpredictable.

Just for fun; (Night time caught on tape) ~2004 In central California some half dozen LEOs cut loose with their handguns against a 4 door Ford or GM product traveling ~25mph down a residental street. ~100+ rounds, minor hits on occupants! Must check the facts on this one.

Oh yea! Dude, the Ford that Clyde and his wench were wasted in is on display in a big truckstop on the insterstate between CA and Las Vegas. Looks to me like all those 30 & 45 cal bullets whistled thru both the Ford and the two S heads.

 

[Rampant_Colt]

<edited>

A.) The more you connect lead with something like a car door the more the metal is fatiged and the next hits penetrates better.
B.) When the window is down a first shot penetration trail with .35 cal pistol is unlikely.
C.) Car doors may or may not work as cover, but they work real well as concealment. And concealment works both ways.

The bullet path shooting into cars and shooting thru glass is unpredictable.

Agreed.
It's really just a gamble on whether or not the bullet will strike the window regulator or side impact beam. If the bullet strikes either one of those it will likely be stopped. Bare automotive sheetmetal is no match for most service calibers.

 

[jhenry]

A 7.62x25 Tokarev will penetrate a VW Beetle completely lengthways so long as it does not hit the body of the engine. Sideways, it will zip in one side and leave through the outer skin of the off side door headed for Kansas, mad as a hornet.

 

[tipoc]

Here...the Buick O truth...

http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/thebuickotruth.htm

And by the way a .22 will penetrate most auto doors these days unless it hits the window mechanism or a strut. The .38 Special has no particular problem either.

tipoc

 

[DG45]

The Guns America article that was hyperlinked as an attachment by a respondent to this thread didn't have much to say about car door and window penetration, but convinced me that the last thing I want is a bullet that expands so much it doesn't penetrate. Well... actually I didn't need any convincing of that, I've always believed that hollow point ammo has resulted in getting the shooters killed as often as the shoot-ees. I've always believed that bullet penetration trumps bullet expansion hands down (at least it does if accompanyied by good bullet placement) and that article just sort of buttressed what I've always believed anyway. I'd much rather know that my ammo would put a 38 to 45 caliber hole all the way through a 15" thick perp, than know that it would enter as a 38 to 45 cal. hole that would quickly blow up to 70 cal. as it penetrated, but because it expanded so much, so quickly, would stop 4" deep into the target. Still gotta hit what you're shooting at though.

 

[HoraceHogsnort]

How much firepower would it take to penetrate a 1/4" steel plate? I'm think'n there just ain't no handgun cartridge out there that'll do it.

 

[Tamara]

How much firepower would it take to penetrate a 1/4" steel plate? I'm think'n there just ain't no handgun cartridge out there that'll do it.

Well, that all depends on the steel. Is it mild steel or hardened?