JuanCarlos
New member
I've spent my share of time around wounded vets. Come spend a tour with me in Iraq.
US General apologizes for using Koran for target practice
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I've spent my share of time around wounded vets. Come spend a tour with me in Iraq.
The Tourist
Moderator
Juan, first, thank you for my freedom.
Then let me ask you an important question that you as a veteran have earned the right to answer. How would you have felt during that time if you knew that your tour was spent simply to buy diplomatic time?
In other words, no military objective, no ground to be won or lost, no terrorism blunted--just time off of the clock so that old graybeards can figure out how not to offend each other.
If you are a person who has studied history, then you'll know that eighteen months of the Vietnam War was spent in deciding what size and shape the table should be for peace talks. How many young boys died in those eighteen months while diplomats decided between "Pledge or carnuba."
I was never a soldier or a mercenary, but I was a junior in college when boys who flunked out as freshmen came back under the GI Bill. It was like the "Invasion Of The Body Snatchers." Oh, they looked the same, but the first time I ran up to one in humor I knew it was never going to be the same.
But now I volunteer. Statistics estimate that 30% of our present combat troops will need care of some type, mostly for PTSD. And our own kind is kissing a koran...
Then let me ask you an important question that you as a veteran have earned the right to answer. How would you have felt during that time if you knew that your tour was spent simply to buy diplomatic time?
In other words, no military objective, no ground to be won or lost, no terrorism blunted--just time off of the clock so that old graybeards can figure out how not to offend each other.
If you are a person who has studied history, then you'll know that eighteen months of the Vietnam War was spent in deciding what size and shape the table should be for peace talks. How many young boys died in those eighteen months while diplomats decided between "Pledge or carnuba."
I was never a soldier or a mercenary, but I was a junior in college when boys who flunked out as freshmen came back under the GI Bill. It was like the "Invasion Of The Body Snatchers." Oh, they looked the same, but the first time I ran up to one in humor I knew it was never going to be the same.
But now I volunteer. Statistics estimate that 30% of our present combat troops will need care of some type, mostly for PTSD. And our own kind is kissing a koran...
When 9/11 happened and immediately the talk of declaring war on terrorism started I thought of Viet Nam and how that became such a screw up from a political fight. I was terribly afarid that we were right back into one here. Things in Afganistan went much better that I ever imagined but I really wish that we had not gone into Iraq. Bush Sr. lost the election because he did not go into Iraq in Desert Storm because he had no authority to nor was there a real reason to. The public did not forgive him for that. 10+ years later we paid the price and are still paying for it. It has not divided the nation like Viet Nam did but I am afraid it will eventually. I hope the politicians learned something from Viet Nam and seems that they have a little but I don't think the average American, especially the younger ones have.
IZinterrogator
New member
I just find the whole thing interesting because policy for detention operations in Iraq is that we must wear surgical gloves when we handle the Korans we give the detainees because non-Muslims aren't supposed to touch the Koran, let alone kiss it.
mooreshawnm
New member
We've lost. When we went in I had 'Crusade 03' on my helmet and our chaplain was constantly talking about a war of religions. That was the attitude at the start. When an IED would go off, the house nearest the blast would be leveled by engineers, someone lived there? Oh thats to bad....get out. It was quieter then. Then the new commanders came and tried to be 'nice.' That would be about April 2004. Yeah we changed from an army to a peace keeping force.....when did the violence really start? Oh yeah that would be April 2004. I was there and I saw the change....both in our attitude and their reaction to it. We got nicer and they started fighting....because they knew we were weak.
For those who asked what they would charge the soldier with:
Gnerally considered to be the "catch-all" or otherwise known as "this covers any and all offenses that we didnt think of ahead of time to list specifically elsewhere in the UCMJ, but we dont like, and want to charge you with something, so here it is"
As to the General's actions. I could care less. If thats how he chose to apologize and/or show respect, so be it. He was not forced at gunpoint orpenalty of incarceration to do it, I'm sure, so it was his choice. Big whoop. I'm sure he's got bigger and more important things to worry about.
Gnerally considered to be the "catch-all" or otherwise known as "this covers any and all offenses that we didnt think of ahead of time to list specifically elsewhere in the UCMJ, but we dont like, and want to charge you with something, so here it is"
As to the General's actions. I could care less. If thats how he chose to apologize and/or show respect, so be it. He was not forced at gunpoint orpenalty of incarceration to do it, I'm sure, so it was his choice. Big whoop. I'm sure he's got bigger and more important things to worry about.
This story disgusts me! Had it been ME over there, I wouldn't have shot the Koran ... I would have used it for toilet paper!!!
What is wrong with our nation today? I have news for some people here ... We are AT WAR with these people, a people who will SHOOT, HANG OR BEHEAD any person identifying them self as anything BUT a Muslim! A nation where women who DARE to read, write or attempt to learn anything will suffer consequences ranging from being stoned to death to being marched into a soccer field and EXECUTED and then, some young soldier doing his duty over there shooting at a Koran is dismissed from duty, sent home and marked and disgraced for life? Am I the only person who has a SERIOUS problem with this?
What about all of THEIR soldiers who execute Christians and burn and desecrate every Bible they can find? Where is the OUTRAGE over that? Obviously, this is a situation where "what is good for the goose ISN'T good for the gander! Double standards, double standards, double standards!!!
As for the officer who disgraced us and our nation by kissing the Koran and holding it to his forehead before handing it back to a village elder ... I have WAY more of a problem with what he did than I do with the soldier who shot it!
Our country is losing it's mind!
What is wrong with our nation today? I have news for some people here ... We are AT WAR with these people, a people who will SHOOT, HANG OR BEHEAD any person identifying them self as anything BUT a Muslim! A nation where women who DARE to read, write or attempt to learn anything will suffer consequences ranging from being stoned to death to being marched into a soccer field and EXECUTED and then, some young soldier doing his duty over there shooting at a Koran is dismissed from duty, sent home and marked and disgraced for life? Am I the only person who has a SERIOUS problem with this?
What about all of THEIR soldiers who execute Christians and burn and desecrate every Bible they can find? Where is the OUTRAGE over that? Obviously, this is a situation where "what is good for the goose ISN'T good for the gander! Double standards, double standards, double standards!!!
As for the officer who disgraced us and our nation by kissing the Koran and holding it to his forehead before handing it back to a village elder ... I have WAY more of a problem with what he did than I do with the soldier who shot it!
Our country is losing it's mind!
No, you are not
Me too. What a disgusting display of weakness and submission to a religion which considers him an infidel.
Our leaders have lost touch with what is good for the American people. They are elitists who "rule" over us rather than "serve" us. They must be held to account. Stop listening to their lies, educate yourself about what is going on and then stand up and do something about it.
The Tourist
Moderator
If you can find a copy of today's (May 19, 2008) copy of our local WSJ, you'll find this soldier/koran story in a sub-section, in one of those side strip columns showing news-in-brief. Our area didn't even think it was a news story until today.
Now, my personal opinion is that this story is a tempest in a tea cup. Further, as Americans, our first concern should be for the safety and career of our soldier--as it always should be. Oh, I don't know, but shouldn't a soldier catching shrapnel, so you don't have to, be given the same innocent-until-proven guilty cloak as you enjoy?
Additionally, during WWII we made fun of the Axis powers in the media. I've seen Bugs Bunny cartoons, Three Stooges shorts and Superman comic books with a USA message. We make an entire cartoon depicting the Japanese as buck-tooth idiots and now slam this soldier for shooting a book. My, how far the mighty have fallen.
Okay, trot this scofflaw out here so I can slap his wrist with a rolled newspaper and call him a very bad boy. Then I'll thank him for my freedom and apologize for the conduct of a nation who should be proud.
JuanCarlos
New member
Maybe I missed that brief when I went for my tour, but I'm pretty sure that shooting at a Koran is no part of my duties as a soldier.
Generally, yes. And while the standards of evidence always seemed a bit lower (and there exist fun "catch-all" laws like Article 134 that would never fly in the civilian world) he generally is.
We also ran internment camps for the Japanese, something that would also never fly today and which most reasonable people agree wasn't exactly one of our proudest moments. You can't judge the standard we're expecting of a soldier today against what we as a nation did half a century ago. I'd suggest that our use of racist propaganda films is something that progress has deemed unacceptable, just like slavery, misogyny, etc.
gianelli280
New member
Was the officer who delivered the koran muslim? If i'm not mistaken there are muslim chaplains. Its one thing to hand over a koran that way if its your religious obligation, but i can see the offense if this act was to appease them.
gianelli280
New member
JrFoxx... article 92 also 
Cause i'm sure they told them something to the extent of "dont disgrace anything holy"
Cause i'm sure they told them something to the extent of "dont disgrace anything holy"
The Tourist
Moderator
JuanCarlos said:
I agree. I met a Japanese woman at the VA hospital who was a young girl during that era. I learnd a lot of history.
But my point of the debate is this. Many people hate the Lautenberg Act because it can "reach back into the past" even though the act itself is repugnant. In many cases, laws have a "grandfather clause." In fact the mufflers on my Harley have to conform to 2004 statutes only, just as some collector cars need no seatbelts.
However, even though I am a civilian, I know of no law or code of military conduct that penalizes a soldier from "desecrating" an opponents' flags, uinforms, or war trophies.
If there is, you'd better round up the Hells Angels who wear chromed nazi helmets.
The question then becomes, is a koran a tool of an opponent? Of course not. Many law abiding USA citizens use the koran in daily worship right here inside our country.
So if a koran can not directly be tied to any acts of a (war time) opponent, why should a soldier be subjected to any tribunal for conduct?
It would seem to me that no grandfather clause exists (as in Lautenberg), no military code applies, and no cilvilian law covers him since he was outside the country.
He's not a lawbreaker, and hence should not be treated like one.
Okay, yeah, yeah, not a bright move. You'd better slap me in irons, as well, for crimes against society from 1969 to about 1974. I also slipped a bit in 1979.
Last I checked we won those wars. We very well can judge by that standard. Back then we actually made up our mind who was the enemy and what to do with them and didn't have our minds muddled with absurd concern for not "offending" them. This wussery of being the more sensitive and compassionate army needs to be shot right alongside that book.
The Tourist
Moderator
Yellowfin said:
Here's an epithet that goes right into my lexicon of insults.
Imagine reducing a man's life to the catch-all of "wussery." Sounds like high crimes and misdemeanors to me. "We hereby sentence you to a lifetime of tofu and Vespa scooters."
The problem is this idea is actually being bandied about in this forum as a plausible action of our military upper echelon. To that, most here agree, and that's a sorry state.
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