US General apologizes for using Koran for target practice

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toybox99615

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It happened in Iraq not in America

no matter how some of you try to rationalize the incident your forgetting some of the most critical point: it happened in Iraq. Americans are in Iraq working towards a goal of unifying a country and establishing a positive relationship with America.

A Staff Sargent who can not comprehend that doing something this foolish while in Iraq should not be trusted with the lives of others. Why he chose to use the Quran as a target is not cleary known. However he obviously chose to make it a target. His actions were certainly not justified.

Every day thousands of American troops are placing themselves in harms way. Our troops spend endless hours attempting to improve the lives of Iraqi people and improving the image of America. A incident lie this destroys the work of hundreds of good men and women working toward the goal of democracy.

This guy deserves what ever repercussions that fall on him. He is a Staff Sargent not some kid right out of boot. He was suppose to be a leader and positive image for his troops. He definatly proved he was neither by his own actions.
 
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wingman

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Americans are in Iraq working towards a goal of unifying a country and establishing a positive relationship with America.
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Naive thinking to believe that we can unify a country by occupying, pie in the sky thinking, would be good for Sesame street.
 
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FireMax

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Okay, you guys got a little off topic which is no big deal, but no one addressed the elephant in the room....

Regardless of where you stand on what the soldier did, how do you feel about a Colonel in the US Army kissing the Koran and touching it to his forehead and then giving it as a gift to the tribal elder? Don't you think that is a little too much ass kissing? Do you think some politician in the Bush admin demanded he do this, or do you think he thought that up himself?

It said Colonel Ted Martin, a brigade commander, held up a new copy of the Koran which he kissed and touched to his forehead as he handed it to the tribal elders.
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Is it just me, or does that seem like a bit much? Would this colonel hand me a Christian bible, kiss it and hold it to his forehead out of respect? I doubt that.
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dresden8

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A colonel in such a situation is not just an ass kicking warrior, sometimes he has to be an ass kissing diplomat. Hearts and minds and all that.
 
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dresden8

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Well, that's why the world takes a dim view of US foreign adventures. The US forces are supposed to be there to help the Iraqi's, as several posters have already mentioned.

Not kick every ass that doesn't kiss an American one.
 
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FireMax

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Who said anything about that? I'm just saying that it is a bit much for the colonel to be kissing the Koran in a show of submission like that. Our military members should be respected for their ferocity and skill, not for their ability to kiss someone's ass.

Give the tribal elder a gift. Say you're sorry. That's fine. But kissing the Koran? ***??
 
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JuanCarlos

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Regardless of where you stand on what the soldier did, how do you feel about a Colonel in the US Army kissing the Koran and touching it to his forehead and then giving it as a gift to the tribal elder? Don't you think that is a little too much ass kissing? Do you think some politician in the Bush admin demanded he do this, or do you think he thought that up himself?
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Sounds like an officer trying to smooth over tensions with locals, and offering a heartfelt apology in a manner culturally appropriate to those being apologized to. Might seem like excessive ass-kissing to us, but honestly in the context of their culture it doesn't seem too over-the-top. But this is just from my experience with the Iraqis, which while limited is going to be a bit more than the average American.

And I doubt it was the Bush administration that suggested the manner of apology. More likely somebody on his staff who knows a bit about the culture (assuming he doesn't personally) or one of his Iraqi advisers.

Who said anything about that? I'm just saying that it is a bit much for the colonel to be kissing the Koran in a show of submission like that. Our military members should be respected for their ferocity and skill, not for their ability to kiss someone's ass.

Give the tribal elder a gift. Say you're sorry. That's fine. But kissing the Koran? ***??
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I'm sorry, but in a situation like Iraq where we aren't just fighting an enemy but also trying to establish a functioning government and work with the locals, our soldiers (and in particular higher-grade officers) are just as much diplomats as they are warriors. When we're fighting a uniformed foe on the field of battle, your attitude is appropriate. For the average infantryman out on patrol, it's probably appropriate as well. But part of a field-grade officer's job description over there is to deal with locals in a diplomatic manner. That's all this was. If you don't like it, then it sounds like you just think we should be out of the nation-building business. I'd agree. But that doesn't change the nature of our current mission.
 
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The Tourist

Moderator
Now that every anti-American foreign power sees how weak and apologetic we make our leaders, I wonder how many more boys are going to die.

What's that I heard? "No more Vietnams."
 
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dresden8

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One would have thought there's more to winning a war than carpet bombing every mo fo in sight.

There was a deliberate insult made, and an apology was made. I don't see how admitting an error and making a sincere apology is "demeaning" or whatever.

However, I'm sure whoever did the shooting is in for a right royal sh1tstorm when that Colonel gets his hands on him. I'm sure he won't like being videotaped on this occasion.
 
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FireMax

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There was a deliberate insult made, and an apology was made.
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It was more than an apology. It was a show of submission that was not warranted. The Colonel should have apologized, but kissing the Koran is way beyond bounds. The Koran speaks of killing infidels. The colonel is an infidel in their eyes, yet he kissed that book. Don't you think that's just a little ironic and quite honestly.... a lot pathetic?
 
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dresden8

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Well, the bible talks a lot about killing too, how is that relevant?

The Iraqi's are supposed to be allies, not subjects. When you're in their country, you play by their rules.
 
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FireMax

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Well, the bible talks a lot about killing too, how is that relevant?
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The Colonel is on foreign soil kissing a Muslim Koran, not a Christian bible. With respect, the question is, how is your point about the Christian bible relevant? But, I digress.

Dresden, you're okay with a member of our military kissing the Koran as a show of submission and I am not. I understand your position... thanks for expressing your view on the matter. I am interested to know what others think. Maybe I'm way off base on this one or maybe not.
 
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The Tourist

Moderator
dresden8 said:
"demeaning" or whatever
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Perhaps not to our culture, but as you know many times our American prisoners of war are forced to sign statements of guilt. They make it a very big deal, even if they have to use torture.

But more to the point, consider the message it sends. Many of the elderly Viet Minh leaders admit that they were pretty much on the ropes. They were running out of food and war materials and morale was sagging. Then they heard about the numerous war protests on our campuses. For many, it encouraged them to continue fighting.

So let's do some math. Let's suppose that if we would have stood firm against the Cong as a nation, the war might have shortened by one third of the time.

Considering that almost 60,000 names appear on the black wall in Washington D.C., that means that we might have saved 20,000 boys.

Kissing the koran was about the dumbest thing a leader could have done. He may have just sentenced his own troops to more deaths in a protracted conflict.
 
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JuanCarlos

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Kissing the koran was about the dumbest thing a leader could have done. He may have just sentenced his own troops to more deaths in a protracted conflict.
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I guess I just don't agree that this incident in any way protracted the conflict. Also, I'd suggest that the number of our boys killed as a result of the entire incident is about the same...sure, the show of "submission" (I disagree that it was necessarily submissive, in the context of their culture) might embolden some...but without a profuse apology the deliberate and mean-spirited affront to their religion (we're not just talking about eating pork here) would have incited others.

Considering that our "mission" (what there is of one, but I guess we don't want to get started on that) is largely diplomatic at this point, I'm guessing looking like we care is probably preferable to looking tough, given what is likely to be the same amount of violence caused.
 
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The Tourist

Moderator
Juan, every time you capitulate you simply get another list of demands.

During the first Gulf War our own allies made our female soldiers wear long sleeve shirts because it offended their men. And of course, the USA gave it.

We should have refused to give in, allowed our female soldiers the rights any soldier had there, and trucked in a few bags of saltpeter for the "allies" who couldn't control themselves.

Come spend a shift with me at the vets' hospital.
 
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Crosshair

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Would you use a Bible as toilet paper or would you say something if you saw someone doing that?
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If it's their bible, I don't care. I have no right to complain. If it was MY bible, yea, I'd put them in the hospital. Same if they took a crap on my car.

As for myself, things would have to get rather desperate before I used one considering alternatives are generally readily available. All the ones I own have sentimental value in some form or another. If I was in a motel and the only paper that was available was the bible in the room. Sure, why not.
 
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