US Army Solicitation for JCP Pistol

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Handy

Moderator
Don't let retail costs fool you. All these guns can be had within a few cents of each other when it comes to several hundred thousand copies.


The Beretta was a cheaper PACKAGE for all the guns and spare parts that constituted the bid. Bringing up the pistol unit price is smoke and mirrors: If the Sigs were cheaper, their parts would be cheaper as well.


I'm wondering what off the shelf hi-cap .45 ACP Sig you guys are talking about?



As for material costs, the cheapest part is the one that is easiest to produce as long as the material is somewhat common. Aluminum can be machined several times faster than steel, so it is cheaper, despite the higher refining cost. Plastic requires no machining and is cheaper than either.
 
K

kgpcr

New member
XM8 is a piece of ****. All the news from the troops tell us that the .223 is not doing so well. great for spray and pray in Nam but in the mountains its just not got what it takes and i love the M16. Looks like the 6.8mm is gaining popularity. hope it catches on
 
C

CobrayCommando

Moderator
Ooookkkk.....


Anyway Handy: WRONG!!! :D Maybe that is...

Normally you would be right about the spare parts price thing, but it is heavily suspected that Beretta found out what SIG was going to charge the military for spares and underbid it by a very little amount.
 
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Grayrider

New member
Seems to me that S&W could add a safety to the M&P pretty easily. After all we have not seen what the 45 version of that gun will look like yet, and selecting an American maker would be very well liked by politicians.

GR
 
M

MD_Willington

New member
Regarding H&K, they just did a huge contract with DHS/ICE (used to be INS IIRC)

"This is the largest pistol procurement in the history of U.S. law enforcement," says Wayne Weber, a manager with the German firearms giant Heckler & Koch, one of the top-tier firms competing for the five-year, $25 million contract. Besides H&K, Austrian gun manufacturer Glock, Italy's Beretta, and two American-based manufacturers, Smith & Wesson and SigArms Inc., acknowledge vying for the pact.
Click to expand...

Link:
http://www.govexec.com/features/0604-15/0604-15s1.htm

Think they'll do a "McNamara" here and consolidate to a single type?

MD
 
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RsqVet

New member
The idea of seeing 1911 in fray in the form of Para-ord would be intresting though I don't know if they are a big enough outfit to throw their hat into the ring.

HK really seems to be the only place with off the shelf products here, though I wonder if ruger or smith will not try to put their traditional DA and DAO guns into the mix --- even though they are not double stack.
 
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CarbineCaleb

New member
Will be interesting - as noted by some others, the 650,000 units is a maximum expected order, not a commitment to buy 650,000. However, just the potential sales of 650,000 must have handgun makers salivating! :D That's alotta pistols. I'll bet these guys make a big effort, some fighting tooth and nail, to get it.
 
H

Handy

Moderator
"The Combat Pistol System consists of: a Caliber .45 pistol and its ancillary
equipment including: Magazines (standard and high-capacity); Suppressor
Attachment Kit for operation of the pistol with and without sound
suppressor; Holster; Magazine Holder (standard and high-capacity); Cleaning
Kit; and Operator's Manual."

It is a little unclear what they mean by "standard and high-capacity" there have been very few guns ever made that accepted both, not counting the artificially blocked AWB mags.
 
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ATW525

New member
I would assume that standard means flush fitting and high capacity means non-flush fitting extended magazines. Of course that's just a guess on my part.
 
C

CobrayCommando

Moderator
Yeah me too, as I stated earlier.

From THR thread:
Following the award of the pistol contract, Smith & Wesson sued the government over the award to Beretta (and I think SIG sued as well.)

The result was a Federal Court found the S&W did pass the tests and the award was not made according to the testing standards. The court also found that the government did not have to follow the standards, using IIRC some very convoluted logic.

So in fact it appears the Beretta was chosen over the SIG and SW because of reasons other than test results.
 
X

xXStarScreamXx

New member
I'd love to see SIG or H&K get this one.
SIG is making guns with external safeties in the X-fives. They probably could be converted to DAK and tear up the trials.

S&W- Cant make an auto to save their lives aside from the collaboration with Walther and their 1911 pattern guns.

Ruger- Not a fan of the triggers and their decocker scares me. I dont trust decockers fully but theirs is just scary. The SIG one is much gentler and less scary. Theya re also incredibly bulky and aesthetically unpleasing in my opinion but not bad guns over all but i'd take a SIG anyday... Hell or my Walther. If i had to carry it around the brock of a ruger would get annoying.

Taurus- We've had two NIB taurus revolvers break during safe handling demonstrations. The lack of innovation is kind of disappointing. alot of copies and nothing really their own.

CZ - A definite contender. Ugly but well built.

Glock - No external safety or decocker.

Spingfield - The XD has the same issues as the Glock but I think its a better gun. Their 1911's impress me but too low of a capacity.

Walther - I love my P99. But not a 45 and has no external safety.
 
C

CobrayCommando

Moderator
LOL if it has too low of a capacity how is a SIG going to do better? To my knowledge SIG doesn't make a double stack .45. :confused:

Double stack pistols aren't a requirement for this.

Think about it: If a double stack 9 is too big too fit alot of peoples hands, how is a double stack .45 going to do better?

I don't think anybody will even bother entering a 1911 this time around.
 
A

auto45

New member
" I don't think anybody will even bother entering a 1911 this time around."

Even if they wanted 1911's, which they don't, I don't believe there is a 1911 manufacturer that could produce that many 1911's which actually worked. ;)

And I'm a 1911 guy.

I would be suspicious of any attempt to "buy" a device, like a handgun, that is intended to be all things to everyone with different needs, but I really don't know.

I also think the "money faucet" is going to close soon.
 
M

MikeOrick

New member
The JCP program is a joint program between SOCOM and the US Army. The JCP was a combination of the Army's Future Handgun System program and SOCOM's SOF Combat Pistol program.

The quantities also cover USMC pistol requirements. The Army's TACOM buys pistols for everybody else, so this could be the Big One we have been waiting for.

They don't have to buy low bidder and they don't have to buy the top scorer; they can go w what they think is the best value.

Draft specs for the JCP system are out:

Draft Request For Proposal for Industry Comment: Response Due 09/15/05 01
http://www.fbo.gov/spg/ODA/USSOCOM/SOAL-KB/H92222-05-R-0017/listing.html

Some highlights:

45 ACP

DA/SA, DAO, or SFA (striker fired action)

W and W/O safety

Std capacity/8 and and high capacity/10 magazines

MIL-STD-1913 accessory rail

2,000 MRBS/5,000 MRBF

20,000 round service life

Mean radius of 10 shot group at 50m no less than 3.15 inches

Suppressor attachment kit

Should fit hands from 5th - 95th percentile; modular grip adjustment is
desired, not required

So the HK USP needs a 1913 rail, the P2000 a safety, the Glocks/XDs/SIGs
need a safety...
 
K

KurtC

New member
Sounds like a good job for a S&W 4586TSW. :D It takes about 10 minutes to add or remove a safety. The DAO trigger is sweet. Solid stainless construction and the lock-up is tight. All it needs is a longer threaded barrel and a melonite finish.

f32c9482.jpg
 
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ATW525

New member
I'm not sure exactly what they mean by a captive takedown pin, but it would sound like that requirement would eliminate the Para LDA.
 
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