Trigger job or aftermarket?
- Thread starter joe sixgun
- Start date
PSA recently had their Enhanced Polished Trigger (EPT) on sale for $30. The sale must have been a hit because they are sold out now, but PSA has been running them at that price once a month or so lately.
The EPT is a mil-spec single-stage trigger that's been polished and nickel coated. I bought a couple to try out, and for the money, I like them. All the take up is gone, and the pull is smoother (and a tiny bit lighter) than the somewhat gritty standard mil-spec trigger they include with basic kits. It has a nice crisp feel compared to the standard version, but it is not a substitute for a good match grade trigger, if that is what you are seeking.
I think the regular price for the EPT is $40 + shipping, which is getting close to ALG territory, but if you can catch one on sale, you can't go wrong for $30. That's less than the individual parts cost of PSA's standard mil-spec trigger which means even if you don't care for the EPT, you will still have useful spare parts on hand.
The EPT is a mil-spec single-stage trigger that's been polished and nickel coated. I bought a couple to try out, and for the money, I like them. All the take up is gone, and the pull is smoother (and a tiny bit lighter) than the somewhat gritty standard mil-spec trigger they include with basic kits. It has a nice crisp feel compared to the standard version, but it is not a substitute for a good match grade trigger, if that is what you are seeking.
I think the regular price for the EPT is $40 + shipping, which is getting close to ALG territory, but if you can catch one on sale, you can't go wrong for $30. That's less than the individual parts cost of PSA's standard mil-spec trigger which means even if you don't care for the EPT, you will still have useful spare parts on hand.
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stagpanther
New member
I agree with this too--great all-around performance for the money--especially their two-stage. I recently tried Primary Arm's enhanced trigger groups (I think they cost around $60.00) and they function very well for single stage triggers in a couple of xx 15 builds I did recently.
The responses above have all recommended aftermarket triggers instead of doing a trigger job yourself. That should speak volumes.
As you increase in aftermarket trigger price, you increase in quality of lower trigger pull and feel. Primary Arms has RRA NM 2 stage triggers for 89 bucks right now, but they have issues losing pull weight and changing feel over time. An ALG ACT will be around 80 bucks, but the pull weight will be heavier and single stage, but it is likely to stay consistent for thousands of rounds.
If you don't want to drop a bunch of money on a 550 dollar AR, you can upgrade the trigger springs instead of the whole trigger group. The JP Enterprises spring kit: http://www.jprifles.com/1.4.8.3_spring.php which can give you a much better trigger feel with your current trigger for much cheaper than any other option.
If you don't want to spend the cash on another trigger, the JPE spring kit is what I recommend.
Jimro
stagpanther
New member
Yeah--that's pretty much what I was thinking of too--I knew they were out there some place.
I'm doing an install of two of their complete trigger groups right now. A bit of work--taking me a day to do versus a few minutes with most others. But you learn a heck of a lot about fire-control reliability over the long haul with their instructions--definitely gives pause for thought when considering the "just polish the sear/connector/spring" camp. I don't know if the video that comes with trigger is available on their website--but it is an eye-opener and good viweing for anyone who wants to work an AR triggers. The kicker is that I'm working on xx 308 platform rifles so I can't go under 4.5lb draw trigger spring--which is OK anyway since that's my preferred draw weight.
joe sixgun
New member
Looks good, I think I will start with the spring kit and a polish. Nothing to lose in doing that.
stagpanther
New member
My inexpert opinion--regardless of the avalanche of flames to the contrary that I'm sure I'll get--is stay away from ANY polishing of crucial trigger/sear connecting interfaces until you put several hundred rounds through your gun with just the springs--unless you are absolutely certain what the consequences could possibly be other than a smoother/lighter break.
joe sixgun
New member
I currently have only 100 rounds through it. What I'm seeing with the upper removed, is that when I pull the trigger the hammer rocks back before it breaks. (No I'm not letting it hit the bolt catch or mag well.) this tells me the angles of the hammer\sear are incorrect. Am I wrong about that?
stagpanther
New member
Very hard for me (or anyone else) to tell without seeing the actual install--if there is actual wobble in the hammer while it is under tension in the cocked position there is definitely something odd going on there and I would go as far as to say cease firing the weapon and call the manufacturer--could be almost anything misaligned in the fire control group causing that (assuming you haven't already started modifying it). Just a guess--not saying that's a definitive analysis. Unless you're talking about trigger overtravel?
joe sixgun
New member
What I mean is that the hammer rocks back in the same way a double action revolver would upon pulling the trigger. It moves approximately 1\8 of an inch before it breaks. This makes me believe the surfaces are not flat against each other.
stagpanther
New member
Again--kinda hard for me to tell what you mean without seeing pictures--It's possible that your disconnector timing might have some influence on the hammer moving a bit prior to breaking--though I'm not sure how you would get 1/8" movement.I'd call DPMS and ask them before you go any further with changing anything and see what they say.
I did a little trigger work on my wifes ar556. I good understanding of AR triggers, a fine stone and the patience to go slow and try it often resulted in a much better trigger pull, its now smoooooth and just a little shorter, just what I wanted. And as mentioned before I didnt have to spend another $80-200 on a $600 rifle. I spent that on an optic for it.
joe sixgun
New member
I haven't messed with it yet. I have been dry firing the crap out of it to try to work put some of the gritty feeling. I think its helping. So far about 250 cycles. Kind of takes me back a couple of decades to snap-in barrels. That was fun.....or not.
stagpanther
New member
Joe--it just occurred to me that what you might actually be seeing is the release of the hammer from the disconnector prior to the front shelf of the trigger engaging the hammer in the "ready to fire" position. That would give you an audible "pop" and hammer moving forward as you release the trigger from pulled as it resets (with upper removed from lower you should see this)--JP adjustable triggers do this and I know that DPMS uses JP's in the some of their guns like the LR 308 platforms. This is normal for an adjustable trigger like the JP--assuming the disconnector timing is correct (that "pop" of the hammer should happen at or very near the end of the trigger reset).
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I'll go against the grain here. If you are prepared to buy an aftermarket trigger anyway why not attempt to improve your current trigger by honing/stoning it?
Testing a trigger is done at home and not at the range so there's no real danger unless you're an idiot.
Screw it up? Who cares just buy aftermarket then.
I have a fancy geissele trigger that runs over $300.. Glad the guy I bought the rifle from liked spending money
. Its the best trigger I've felt in the platform by far.
Worth $350? Not my $350.
Testing a trigger is done at home and not at the range so there's no real danger unless you're an idiot.
Screw it up? Who cares just buy aftermarket then.
I have a fancy geissele trigger that runs over $300.. Glad the guy I bought the rifle from liked spending money
. Its the best trigger I've felt in the platform by far.Worth $350? Not my $350.
I believe what you describe is normal Joe
The design of the factory trigger does in fact cause the hammer to 'jack-back' slightly when the trigger is being pulled, before falling off the sear. That is what causes most of the crappy trigger pull.
This is the reason to replace it with a trigger such as the RRA Two Stage Match Trigger http://www.rockriverarms.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=category.display&category_id=434 for a well spent $85.00. This trigger will break clean as it has the hammer sear designed away from the pivot pin eliminating what you are describing. If you do not know the difference between a Single Stage and a Double Stage trigger, do yourself a favor and study up on them http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2012/03/foghorn/ask-foghorn-whats-the-benefit-of-a-two-stage-trigger/
If a person knows how to polish a trigger (most do not) the creep can be improved but the 'jack-back' cannot. BEST TO NOT DO IT.
BTW: Your trigger would probably move an eighth of an inch, as you stated, but the hammer 'jack-back' you are seeing is much less.
Cheers!
joe sixgun
New member
Illusion you nailed it. I recently read an article in a magazine that clearly illustrated this condition. What harm would be done by relieving some of the angle from the notch on the hammer?
stagpanther
New member
Just my opinion sixgun--I'm not an expert and telling you what you should or should not do.
In general, most people who are dissatisfied with their triggers on an AR (or any gun, for that matter) don't like either the amount of overtravel before hammer break--or the force needed to apply to the trigger to get the hammer to break.
The trigger group in a gas operated system like an AR is a pretty complex and dynamic system that is affected by several factors in it's operation. Smoothing a contact surface in the various engagement surfaces to get "cleaner" (i.e. Non-gritty") feel is OK--but once you actually start altering the actual amount of material or angle of the contact surface by substantively removing metal--you are possibly going to affect the entire fire control system--subtle changes in the geometry of how the different parts engage each other can have un-intended consequences such as irregular timing/firing. My personal opinion is unless you fully understand all these issues and are confident that you know what the various inter-reaction outcomes are going to be--I'd go down the "remove material" path as a last step. I would start with low-lying fruit that is easily reversible like a lighter spring kit.
My less than 2 cents : )
In general, most people who are dissatisfied with their triggers on an AR (or any gun, for that matter) don't like either the amount of overtravel before hammer break--or the force needed to apply to the trigger to get the hammer to break.
The trigger group in a gas operated system like an AR is a pretty complex and dynamic system that is affected by several factors in it's operation. Smoothing a contact surface in the various engagement surfaces to get "cleaner" (i.e. Non-gritty") feel is OK--but once you actually start altering the actual amount of material or angle of the contact surface by substantively removing metal--you are possibly going to affect the entire fire control system--subtle changes in the geometry of how the different parts engage each other can have un-intended consequences such as irregular timing/firing. My personal opinion is unless you fully understand all these issues and are confident that you know what the various inter-reaction outcomes are going to be--I'd go down the "remove material" path as a last step. I would start with low-lying fruit that is easily reversible like a lighter spring kit.
My less than 2 cents : )