Training Without Shooting

[Aguila Blanca]

To me.. pulling the trigger does not need to be "muscle memory", its needs to be a very deliberate and thoughtful action which is precipitated in the moment as a result of a very specific set of conditions.

Muscle memory affects all the muscles in the body, not just the muscles in the trigger finger. The muscles "learn" and remember the weight of the firearm, their position relative to one another (fingers, hand, wrist, arm(s), shoulder(s), etc.) This is why the military changed to the arched mainspring housing -- because soldiers who were accustomed (muscle memory) to shooting revolvers found that the M1911 "didn't point right" for them.

I occasionally test guns -- generally 1911s, from various manufacturers. I set all my own 1911s for a trigger pull weight of between 4-1/2 and 4-3/4 pounds. When I get a test pistol with a trigger around 6 pounds, accuracy goes down because the gun doesn't go off when the muscles expect it to. Likewise, I've had test pistols with 3-1/2-pound triggers. It takes awhile before I can get any accuracy out of those, too, because at first they go off "before they're supposed to."

 

[SIGSHR]

IIRC the British Army issued wooden "flints" for their soldiers to drill with.

 

[FireForged]

I am sure most people in this forum are familiar with trained habit action, habituation, procedural memory, motor memory, embodied implicit memory and all that jazz. I doubt that anyone is lost on the concept.

There are people who are dry fire zealots, some are rather anti-dry fire and others find themselves somewhere in-between. I am not telling you to refrain. I have done my best to explain my position, its all I can do.

I am not much of a dry fire proponent beyond a very very limited introductory sense. Others may disagree and that is fine, I offered my thoughts on it in the hopes that my words may help someone.

 

[stinkeypete]

A gun is just a tool. Have you trained your hand strength? Cardiovascular system? Muscles?

A general regime of cardio and weights will put anyone at an advantaged position in close combat.

Specific additional work on grip strength is specific for handgun shooters. Be aware that grip strength will improve significantly in the first few months and can easily affect point of impact. Strong hands and forearms will also reduce perceived recoil and improve time for shot strings.

Sorry but it’s hard work and not real sexy stuff.

 

[Mainah]

I just don't see how dry firing an 18th century dueling pistol could be of any help in training to use a Glock, 1911, Sig, or whatever.

Fair enough. Although if I end up in a 18th century naval conflict I'm set.

 

[ms6852]

Even before the shortages I always make it a point to train with 22lr ammo, with the rifle I practice at 200 yards free hand shooting sitting crossed legged and kneeling. Can't do the prone because my belly gets in the way. If there is a breeze it spins me around.

With handguns since I carry a revolver I do a lot of double action shooting with my model 617 Smith and Wesson. When I do not feel like driving to shoot but want to shoot I glue paintballs to a poster board and use my BB gun or pellet to practice in the back yard.

 

[Shadow9mm]

So I found an Umarex G19 CO2 powered bb pistol. Licensed Glock copy. Semi auto. Slide does not move. Figured I would work it in during range session for drills to beef up my training time. Currently on my bare bones ration of 50rnds a month.

 

[TunnelRat]

So I found an Umarex G19 CO2 powered bb pistol. Licensed Glock copy. Semi auto. Slide does not move. Figured I would work it in during range session for drills to beef up my training time. Currently on my bare bones ration of 50rnds a month.

Mind if I ask where you got it? Sounds interesting.


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[cslinger]

https://www.pyramydair.com/m/Glock/375

Just be aware MOST C02 replicas will have fairly crappy and different triggers.

 

[rc]

22 adaptors/conversion kits

I know this has drifted off the original topic so I'll chime in about 22 adaptors and training for a stress situation. While not all 22 adaptors keep the weight and balance of the centerfire handgun due to the use of aluminum for the slide, the grip and trigger pull are identical and develop muscle memory for loading and shooting as invaluable practice. Those that talk down about 22 conversion kits due to a lack of recoil are not considering that repetition is the key to training. We know that under stress your skill set will drop to the lowest level of training. Dry firing is not really all that great because it lacks a lot of fundamental feedback that comes from firing a 22 or pellet gun. Dry firing isn't going to tell you if your wrist drops every time you pull the trigger nor is it representative of how you use a gun normally.

I know a guy who confronted criminals late one night who had repeatedly been robbed. He failed to practice regularly with his primary self defense gun, a pump shotgun. Under stress he forgot how to release the shotgun slide and could not load a round in the chamber. The criminals he confronted refused to get down on the ground and in his frustration he closed the distance and resorted to using the shotgun he had as a club striking one across the face and knocking him down. The criminals both ended up running off and getting away to a waiting vehicle with another gang member. He was lucky they didn't pull out a gun and shoot him but he found a box cutter on his property the next day. There is a reason police train with simunitions. There is no substitute for realistic training. Dry firing is not realistic training for real world self defense.

 

[TunnelRat]

I know this has drifted off the original topic so I'll chime in about 22 adaptors and training for a stress situation. While not all 22 adaptors keep the weight and balance of the centerfire handgun due to the use of aluminum for the slide, the grip and trigger pull are identical and develop muscle memory for loading and shooting as invaluable practice. Those that talk down about 22 conversion kits due to a lack of recoil are not considering that repetition is the key to training. We know that under stress your skill set will drop to the lowest level of training. Dry firing is not really all that great because it lacks a lot of fundamental feedback that comes from firing a 22 or pellet gun. Dry firing isn't going to tell you if your wrist drops every time you pull the trigger nor is it representative of how you use a gun normally.

I know a guy who confronted criminals late one night who had repeatedly been robbed. He failed to practice regularly with his primary self defense gun, a pump shotgun. Under stress he forgot how to release the shotgun slide and could not load a round in the chamber. The criminals he confronted refused to get down on the ground and in his frustration he closed the distance and resorted to using the shotgun he had as a club striking one across the face and knocking him down. The criminals both ended up running off and getting away to a waiting vehicle with another gang member. He was lucky they didn't pull out a gun and shoot him but he found a box cutter on his property the next day. There is a reason police train with simunitions. There is no substitute for realistic training. Dry firing is not realistic training for real world self defense.

Dry firing is about practicing a trigger press to get better at trigger control, sight alignment, and the basics of shooting. Idk that it’s suggested as a form of “training”.

I have taken a number of new shooters to the range. I usually start with a 22. Most do quite well. It’s not until a centerfire cartridge comes out that the flinches and bad habits start to show their heads. That’s why I personally think practice with a 22 is valuable, but has its limitations. Dealing with recoil is, for most people, the more challenging part of shooting.

I’ve done two day long courses with UTM (marking rounds). The use of simunitions isn’t about learning to deal with recoil or really even about building weapon familiarity. Live fire is better for the first and the second can be done with snap caps and some spare magazines in your basement. The use of simunitions is generally a consequence of engaging in scenario based training and not wanting to engage in live fire around other people, whether those people are actors in the scenario or opponents in the scenario. It’s a good facsimile, but even more than a 22 it has very limited recoil. It’s a tool in the training scenario.


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[Carl the Floor Walker]

Want to not suck, or be good? Dry fire 30 minutes a day every day. Bill drill, transitions, movement, targets at different distances, 20-50 mag changes, etc.

Good advice. However I dry fire three times a day for 10 minutes. I do a lot of drawing from the holster and I use a laser cartridge. I also use BB/Pellet and Air soft for training and fun. In the past I was shooting 22.cal as well but things are changing even quicker than I anticipated.

I no longer shoot any of my LARGE inventory of Ammo. None. The Ammo shortage is not going to recover and ammo for protection is going to be of vital importance. Just like I prepared years ago to start a good supply, I can also now see that things are going to get very ugly in the next few years.
I still shoot my Shotguns as I am able to find the supply easier to get. I also shoot Black Powder, but do not know how long that will last. I add to my supply of that as well.

 

[TunnelRat]

Good advice. However I dry fire three times a day for 10 minutes. I do a lot of drawing from the holster and I use a laser cartridge. I also use BB/Pellet and Air soft for training and fun. In the past I was shooting 22.cal as well but things are changing even quicker than I anticipated.

I no longer shoot any of my LARGE inventory of Ammo. None. The Ammo shortage is not going to recover and ammo for protection is going to be of vital importance. Just like I prepared years ago to start a good supply, I can also now see that things are going to get very ugly in the next few years.
I still shoot my Shotguns as I am able to find the supply easier to get. I also shoot Black Powder, but do not know how long that will last. I add to my supply of that as well.

To me shooting is part of owning firearms, whether that’s training or practicing what you’ve been trained. Pure enjoyment is a legitimate use as well. Dry fire and pellet don’t replace actual shooting. I can get someone not wanting to shoot as much, but shutting it off entirely is to me going to a detrimental extreme.

I have ammo set aside for defense. At the same time even longer engagements aren’t generally involving thousands of rounds. If the flag really goes up then medical supplies, medical training, food, clean water, and a community of like minded people to help take care of you and each other are going to matter more than a few thousand rounds in the basement. If the best I can do for my son is pass him a supply of never shot pistol ammunition from decades ago I don’t know that I’ve accomplished much, especially if he himself is then unwilling to shoot it. Just my philosophy.


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[Ruark]

In the suffocating, paralyzing stress of a split-second, face to face self defense situation, you'll "go with your training," as instructors like to say. What that means is that you will mentally shut down and do whatever you've learned to do automatically, without thinking - if anything.

This is where good dry fire practice can come in. After quadruple-checking to make sure the gun's empty, practice just drawing and firing in a simulated normal situation: with a jacket, or tropical shirt, or however you carry. Just draw and fire at a spot on the wall, a book on a shelf, etc. Over and over and over, until you can do it smoothly and automatically, in less than a second, utterly without thinking, like you would blink an eye.

Practice it also with a target to your left, and a target to your right.

This could very well save your life someday.

 

[Carl the Floor Walker]

To me shooting is part of owning firearms, whether that’s training or practicing what you’ve been trained. Pure enjoyment is a legitimate use as well. Dry fire and pellet don’t replace actual shooting. I can get someone not wanting to shoot as much, but shutting it off entirely is to me going to a detrimental extreme.

I have ammo set aside for defense. At the same time even longer engagements aren’t generally involving thousands of rounds. If the flag really goes up then medical supplies, medical training, food, clean water, and a community of like minded people to help take care of you and each other are going to matter more than a few thousand rounds in the basement. If the best I can do for my son is pass him a supply of never shot pistol ammunition from decades ago I don’t know that I’ve accomplished much, especially if he himself is then unwilling to shoot it. Just my philosophy.


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Of course I shoot for the pure enjoyment, never said I did not. If I had my way I would be shooting every day, but this is far from the norm. And a far as pellets guns and rifles, they ARE fun. And they are IMO more than just fun, they absolutely can replace actual shooting. Been doing this for way too many years to think it cannot. If fact, you have a tendency to shoot more and train and practice more with Air guns. You can really hone your point and shoot skills.
I was shooting more than a 2,000 rd of 9mm a month before the CRAPOLA. Not shooting my supplies may sound extreme to you, but we are in extreme circumstances at the present and most likely into the future.
We all have our opinions of what we will need in the Future. Yes, I do have medical supplies, water etc, but do not count on a community of like minded people to help. Great if so, but I do not want to assume anything.

In fact just got back from the range today. But shotgun only. And yes you need to keep up with those skills as well. The Shelves at the lGS were the lowest I have seen yet. I mean they were BARE!

Yes, I might give in a take a box of 9mm to the range when I just cannot stand it any longer. But I know very well, that every box shot is a box gone for good. Each to his own.
And I also believe the next 4 years are going to be something we have never experienced before and I believe it is going to get real ugly.

 

[TunnelRat]

Of course I shoot for the pure enjoyment, never said I did not. If I had my way I would be shooting every day, but this is far from the norm. And a far as pellets guns and rifles, they ARE fun. I was shooting more than a 2,000 rd of 9mm a month before the CRAPOLA.
We all have our opinions of what we will need in the Future. Yes, I do have medical supplies, water etc, but do not count on a community of like minded people to help. Great if so, but I do not want to assume anything.

In fact just got back from the range today. But shotgun only. And yes you need to keep up with those skills as well. The Shelves at the lGS were the lowest I have seen yet. I mean they were BARE!

Yes, I might give in a take a box of 9mm to the range when I just cannot stand it any longer. But I know very well, that every box shot is a box gone for good. Each to his own.

Having a community of people is not the same as relying solely on that community. Having it is important in the event you get sick or injured. Independence is great, but the reality is there are limits.

I’ll add, ammo is still available. It’s harder to find and much more expensive, but it hasn’t disappeared for good. At least not yet.

Per your more recent edits, I don’t believe pellet guns can replace shooting actual centerfire cartridges. A supplement, sure.


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[Carl the Floor Walker]

I will disagree with your a belief of that Pellets Pistols or Rifles cannot do more than supplement. A Whole lot of competition now with them. In Europe Iron Plate shooting is big and all over competition with Air Rifles from Bench Shooting to field Target etc is Big. Not sure you are that familiar with them. So nice rifles for instance from $600 to $6,000.

 

[TunnelRat]

I’m well aware of it. I watch the Olympic events for air rifle (I really enjoy biathlon).

Me shooting a C02 pistol doesn’t replicate the challenges of controlling recoil of a centerfire cartridge for multiple shots in a string or dealing with the body’s tendency to flinch from recoil. As I said above, I’ve taken a number of new people shooting. The 22 is relatively easy for them after not much time. When the recoil kicks in from other cartridges is when the challenge for those shooters generally begins.

I’m not opposed to pellet guns. I shot air rifle a lot in high school and per the above I want to pick up a C02 pistol to supplement my reduced shooting. I just don’t consider it a straight replacement if the end goal is to use centerfire rifles and pistols for self defense (if your goal is competition with pellet guns that’s obviously a different story). The existence of international air rifle events isn’t some form of proof positive that pellet guns can replace shooting with actual firearms. In large part the existence of those events has to do with the restrictive firearm laws in other countries and the challenge of traveling internationally with firearms.


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[Carl the Floor Walker]

Just one example of IPS

https://infinityairguns.wordpress.com/2012/07/03/iron-plate-action-shooting-or-i-p-a-s/

One of my favorites

 

[Shadow9mm]

Mind if I ask where you got it? Sounds interesting.


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cabelas had a bunch the other day