Tired of BAD advice.

[Dearhunter61]

Experienced shooter?

Perhaps someone could set the standard for what is considered an experienced shooter? I have been hunting for over 25 years but up until 8 months ago I was one of the guys on the range every October making sure his rifle was still sighted in before deer season. Even then the standard was 1.5 MOA with factory ammo. The reasons I did not shoot more was cost of ammo and the Texas heat. Since then I have started reloading and shooting a lot more. Although I have managed to find loads for each of my rifles, 223, 22-250, 270, 280, 7mm-08, 7mm Mag and 300 Mag which are sub MOA. Actually multiple loads for each that are sub MOA I do not consider myself to be an "experienced shooter". Actually it was not until I started reloading and going to the range more often that I realized just how little I know.

Before bad knees and back ended my golf playing which has lead me to get into reloading and shooting more I was a low single digit handicapper and I know that the difference between a low single digit and a scratch golfer is probably about the same as a good shooter who knows a little and a great shooter who knows a lot. It seems the more I learn about shooting the more I realize how much I do not know. So what is an "experienced shooter" and does that also equate to a great shooter?

One more thing...it was said that NEW rifles are built to shoot sub MOA out of the box today. Are you saying they shoot factory ammo this good? I must say at least with factory ammo I have not found this to be true. I have purchased two new rifles over the last 6 months, Ruger 280 and Remington 7mm-08, and although they both shoot good with the loads I have realoded for them, it took a while to find the loads, they did not shoot factory ammo at sub-MOA. In fact they actually shot factory ammo worse than my older rifles. I have two rifles that are 25 and 30 years old, Browning BBR 7mm Mag and Remington 700 BDL 300 Mag, and both of these rifles actually shoot better than my new ones. I bought the new ones because I did not want to deal with the recoil of the magnums but based on the performance of my 7 Mag it will be the one I use deer hunting again this year.

 

[44 AMP]

Along with what you listed, Jimro

This is for when a good shooting rifle/ammo combo suddenly opens up with no apparent reason.

You might consider adding "CLEAN IT (properly)"

A lot of the time when a good shooting rifle/ammo combination starts opening up group size (and nothing is loose/damaged) it is simply the build up of fouling in the bore, which a proper cleaning will remove.

 

[Jimro]

44AMP,

You confirmed that there are reasonable starting points which are good advice, even over the internet, even when given for free.

It doesn't hurt to clean the rifle, check the crown, check for a clear stock channel, make sure the scope base and rings are tight, swap a scope. They don't cost anything but time and a few cleaning supplies. Swapping brands/weights of ammo only costs a few boxes of ammo (which can be expensive if you have some exotic caliber), but it is still usually cheaper than a trip to a gunsmith.

Heck, we should take the best parts of this thread and make a troubleshooting flowchart.

Jimro

 

[Hello123]

Deerhunter 61, I am like you regarding my findings with factory ammo. most shoot around an 1 1/2 in 3 shot group at 100 yards. With handloads, most will go under an inch, with the occasional under 1/2 inch.

 

[Tymber]

It's not the pipes , Laddie , it's the piper...

 

[Martyn4802]

Somewhere along the way in your shooting life, you're going to have to know what to pay attention to, and what not to put any stock in. It's part of growing up.
I started shooting, reloading, and hunting in 1948. Since then, I've learned that there are certain things that are important in making a rifle shoot. These include free floating the barrel, and if the barrel is NOT lapped by the barrel maker, I lap them routinely. Triggers are important for me shooting well. I do my own trigger jobs. Bedding is important for good accuracy, and if the rifle does not shoot well without a bedding job, I bed the barrel and action.
Good optics are needed too, with sold mounts.
That's about it. The rest is up to you and your shooting ability.
I shot centerfire and rimfire benchrest competetively for a number of years and learned bench technique. You'll never shoot great groups if you have zero shooting ability. Learn to shoot. The best quuipment in the world will NOT make you a great shooter; learn the steps, and practice, practice practice. Oh, and you'll need a good front and rear rest at the bench. Shooting off sand bags doesn't get it.

Here is a target I recently shot with an old Rem 722 in 300 Savage I bought as part of my Rem 722 collection. My first centerfire rifle was a Rem 722 in 300 Savage that I bought in 1949 with money I saved from mowing grass and shoveling snow for about everyone in town.. As I am collecting these fine old rifles, I did nothing to them other than CLEAN them well, and adjust the trigger for a 2 1/2 pound pull. The triggers as they came from the factory back then had zero creep or overtravel. They are excellent. I want to keep these rifles as original as possible, so no barrel lapping or glass bedding. I shot them as I got them, and they all shoot just like this one, with better groups coming from the 222, 222 Mag, and the 257 Roberts.

 

[22-rimfire]

One of my standard bits of advice when a firearm does not shoot well is to have someone else shoot it. It is normally the shooter and not the gun. I do the same thing with my own shooting.... when I can't figure out why a particular gun just won't shoot the way I expect it to, I look to outside help.

I have a Glock Model 22 that hits about 2 feet low at about 10 yds. I couldn't believe it. Anyway, I had others shoot the gun and they had similar results. It is now awaiting my next trip to Atlanta (when I have some time) to pay a visit to Glock. It is hard to find the time. That gun has been sitting for a couple years unfired now. I have a Model 23 that I prefer more anyway.

After the I eliminate my shooting as the problem, then I look to the gun.

Bad advice is relative. As mentioned, often the OP does not give enough information to make a judgement. Someone invaribly asks for more information.... days pass.... a lot more posts occur...... finally the OP comes back and the advice gets focused to more relevant possibities. Sometimes the OP never comments again. What can I say?

 

[guntotin_fool]

Thanks for the responses.

re Appleseed training. For all intents and purposes, its just 25 meter or yard practice with a rifle, same thing can be accomplished with a .22 and a deck of playing cards as practice. It is not long range shooting practice. Long range shooting is done at long ranges, where wind, trajectory, and range estimation or determination is required. HOWEVER. 25 meter practice with a .22 is JUST what most people need. and LOTS of it.

A decent .22 with a good trigger and 5 bricks of ammo will teach as much or more about the skills needed to place a bullet on target as almost any of the books written about it.

 

[HappyGunner]

If you think the Bolt Action people get a lot of very poor or unneeded or just plain bad advice, just try getting anything useful about a problem with any Black Rifle.

 

[44 AMP]

Don't forget the other side of the coin

Those posters who take a new rifle (or a new to them rifle) and think they must do X, Y, and Z before they can even think of testing the accuracy.

A lot of gun guys are like a lot of car/cycle guys, in that we put on the aftermarket/custom shiny crome or "tactical" parts before we even get involved in seeing how well the stock item works. We "know" it will be better with all the bells and whistles!

People like that are the ones who keep the custom parts makers in business. Sometimes they are actually justified, many times their only real use is "because we want them".

And "because we want them" is a perfectly good reason, as long as we aren't fooled into thinking we need them when we do not.

Lots of us love to tinker, and as long as we are honest with ourselves and admit most of the time, we tinker for the love of tinkering, and not because it is "needed" no real harm is done.

 

[brtelec]

This has been an interesting thread. I am new to these forums but not to this sport. I worked in a couple of shops and worked as a rangemaster in a couple of places years ago. It is amazing the lack of basic education and skill most people have with a rifle. I have found that the average factory rifle with properly selected factory ammo and a correctly mounted scope and rings, is easily capable of out shooting the average operator. All the accurizing in the world will not make up for the lack of basic skill. It is no different than the guy that buys more expensive golf clubs to improve his game. Most people would could do with some professional instruction and a lot of practice.

 

[ZeroJunk]

Everybody wants their rifle to shoot it's best. And, shooting off of a bench is a good way to determine what that requires. But, practicing continously off of a bench is a waste of time with a hunting rifle IMO. If I practice on a bench every day I might trim off 1/4 inch at 100 yards, night and day in competition but almost irrelevant on the hunt. But, if I practice prone, or against a tree, or from the top of a stump, or wherever you might be on the hunt , the benefits are much more evident.

That's my free advice rather than being obsessed with bench accuracy and spending all your time there.

 

[jneilson]

I have an SKS. When I first went out and shot it, it wouldn't shoot for anything for me. This guy that was also shooting noticed my troubles and asked if he could fire off a few shots with it. I said sure. He made a coke can dance around at about one hundred yards, handed the rifle back to me and said, "At least we know the gun shoots fine".

 

[HappyGunner]

I bet that told you something

 

[ndking1126]

To OP:

Sounds to me like you might be tired of "incomplete" advice. All those tricks can make a rifle more accurate, so I can't exactly consider that to be bad advice. To offer "complete" advice, we have to address the shooter and the equipment--unfortunately, as you mention, this doesn't always happen.

Growing up in a family that was full of casual shooters, I was taught to squeeze the trigger, breathing techniques, etc., etc. I was led to believe that the guns were accurate and I was just moving the gun too much.

However, I received the best advice I ever got after my uncle became a serious (and educated) shooter. His advice was "If you pull the trigger with the sight on the target and the bullet doesn't hit where it's supposed to, then the problem is not you. It's the equipment!"

I took his advice of free floating the barrel, trigger job, removing the front sight from my rifle, and cleaning the barrell of copper fouling (I had previously only used powder solvent). Wow, the group sizes shrunk like never before.

Thanks for posting this though. It was a great reminder we need to be careful of what ideas we just start throwing out when we don't know all the facts.

 

[BADSBSNF81]

My .02 worth. In over 25+ years I have heard "rifle won't shoot" at least once every time I was on a military range (3-4 times a year). Out of all of them, only two were valid. Both were older than dirt M16's (H&R and GM). The rest - failure to apply basic marksmanship principles.

On civilian ranges, I have occassionlay heard the same thing. I will politely ask if assistance is wanted. Most folks will accept. Usually within a few rounds it is evident to me that they are lacking in basic marksmanship skills. If they want, I give a very short course on the basics.

Before "modifying" the weapon, make sure the operator knows what he/she is doing.

 

[Martyn4802]

That is huge advice, and worth far more than .02 cents..

 

[countryrebel]

My father-in-law was all over the paper with his custom 300 ultra mag at 100 yards. I sat in behind it and grouped 1". The first thing I do when a rifle will not group is to let someone else with good shooting experience try it then go from there.

 

[ISC]

the greatest aid to accuracy is almost always adjusting the nut behind the trigger.

 

[10-96]

Bad Advice
I'll be scratching my head on this one for a while. Most forums encourage open discussion, swapping of ideas, telling of stories, spinning of yarns, recalling memories, exchanging memories & experiences... you know- kinda like grabbin a stool someplace that made a half hearted effort to make anybody and everybody feel welcome if they minded their manners. Yes, there's bad advice here and I'm prob'ly guilty of dolling out my fair share. But, at least there's discussion going on and when "bad advice" is trounced upon- it's there for all the world to see and evaluate for themselvesagainst sound advice. What do you suggest we do next, ban everybody from joining and posting opinions until they whip out acceptable DDFM214's, accredited Gunsmith/Machinist school diplomas, PD academy certificates and retirement watches? Lets not stiffle ideas, speech, and camaraderie amongst hunters, shooters, collectors, and sportsmen.