Tired of BAD advice.

[guntotin_fool]

Seems like everyday, someone here asks a question about performance of a rifle, and the FIRST thing offered back, is bedding the rifle, lapping lugs, sending the gun out for this work, or that work, new crowns, etc.

Before anyone starts working on the rifle, there is a ton of information needed about the shooter and their skills.

I liken it to someone saying their car jerks when they shift, and someone jumps up and says rebuild the tranny. When maybe its just a matter of learning how to use the clutch better.

Shooting is a skill, it takes years of practice and experience before you are good at it, and for some, even then they need a lot of instruction.

Things like the hold, the cheekweld, the trigger pull, sight picture, all need to be learned and practiced. Shooting a box of ammo a year does not provide these skills.

Also, when someone says the rifle does not shoot well, and provides no information about range, group size, ammo shot, scope or sights used, providing some "accuracy package" or cureall is NOT doing the shooter any benefit. Its different if someone asks, "I have a .22.250 brand x, with a 4-14x brand y scope, shooting sierra xxxx at xx grains, over xxxxx of this powder, using rem cases over fed br primers, and cases are sorted by weight, and this is happening" Ok, then suggest lapping or crowning if you suspect that to be the case, but not a hunting firearm, where you have no idea if the guys upset because he can only get 1.2 inch groups, but he's shooting factory iron sights...Or he has a big box special package and its a 4x scope on bad mounts and he's never thought to strip the gun, clean the inletting out, and reassemble it carefully, torqueing or at least tightening the action screws or the mount screws for the scope.

Lets be realistic here, First the shooter needs to accurately present the problem, we need to start at the basics and work forward from there. Actually altering the rifle is one of the last things needed usually.

Good shooting is a learned skill, before saying the rifle won't shoot a 1 inch group, we have to make sure the shooter has the skills to do that.

Suggesting a good air rifle or .22 to practice with IMHO is 99 times more likely to cure the problem of the "gun that won't shoot" than all the gunsmithing in the world.

 

[velocette]

Free advice is frequently worth just what you paid for it.

Roger

 

[sholling]

Some very good thoughts. Without more information it's impossible to give a thoughtful reply to many of the questions posted here.

It's a rare modern hunting rifle that won't shoot 1-1.5 MOA or better right out of the box. And, with the exception of Ruger who stubbornly refuses to include a decent trigger on their rifles, pretty much everything on the market today includes a truly great trigger. With dang few exceptions few issues are hardware related and that's exactly why I keep pushing Appleseed training and having a quality 22lr to practice with on at least a weekly basis. If a shooter gets their cheek weld, hold, and breathing down on a 22 it will directly translate to their centerfires.

 

[onemsumba]

it has to be glass, beded, target crown, pillar beded, lapped barrel, blue printed action. sako extractor where applicable, Ti firing pin as well.

no way it would even shoot from the factory with out that at a minimum.

also have to have a McMillian stock and a new cryo target barrel

need all these things so you can brag how much money your poured into a perfectly good rifle in the first place.

also has to be push feed! everyone knows that only push feed actions are used by bench resters.... and bench resters are the only valid comparison especially for a hunting rifle.

 

[James K]

Amen to the above, but not limited to "rifle doesn't shoot."

How about the guy who says, "I have this thing someone told me is some kind of gun or something. What is it and how much is it worth? And I want details, not a bunch of baloney."

Jim

 

[P-990]

Sounds like really good thinking, actually. Perhaps the phrase, "most gun problems start behind the butt-plate" is truly more appropriate than most people think.

But, I have been on the side of "Do you know what you're doing?" a couple of times. Last one, one of my favorites, was calling Thompson Center about an Encore muzzleloader barrel that wouldn't shoot to POA and was erratic in accuracy. First I get fed, "Well, those sights (William's Guide Receiver sights) aren't easy if you're not used to them." Unfortunately I was in no mood to play, and got a little snappy, "Look, I have an NRA Master-classification in Highpower, I shoot an AR-15, I know how to use a peep sight. What I'm saying..." Customer service got a little better after that!

So I can see it from both sides. One side says, "What are you capable of?" before worrying about your rig. And the other side says, "This is frustrating" when your outfit won't work as well as you can. Sometimes we're not always clear about those lines.

 

[fisherman66]

And, with the exception of Ruger who stubbornly refuses to include a decent trigger on their rifles

What year Ruger rifles are we talking about? I bought one a little over a year ago that has a honest to goodness 4# with no creep and proverbial glass rod. A buddy just got a new Savage and it's not even close. The Savage (non-acu) has lengthy creep and turkey call slate feel at that.

I've also heard they new Hawkeye trigger is quite good although I haven't squeezed one yet.

 

[44 AMP]

I guess that's what I've been missing...

It's a rare modern hunting rifle that won't shoot 1-1.5 MOA or better right out of the box.

Because I haven't bought a "modern" hunting rifle in many years. Depending on how you define modern. And how you define "group".

And then there is the whole rifle/ammo combination thingy.

I, and the majority of my rifles are from the era when 1.5MOA out of the box (with the best ammo) was very good performance in a hunting rifle, and we often worked hard and long to develope loads and tune the rifles so they would make 1MOA (or less), if they could. And if we got there, that rifle/ammo combination was a "keeper", something to be treasured.

If 1-1.5MOA is the expected minimum performance level commonly found in new hunting rifles, I just may have to consider another purchase! Got any recommendations? And what for the ammo?

 

[sholling]

What year Ruger rifles are we talking about?

Pretty new. Look at the Mini-14 and the M77. None of those are known for great triggers. I just had a thread going about the M77 Compact and the advice was buy one and swap in a better trigger. In 2008 Howa, Savage, Tikka, and Weatherby all make fine $400-500 rifles with outstanding adjustable triggers that can be adjusted from 2-4lbs. The Hawkeye is supposed to be an improvement on the older M77s but Ruger is a stubborn company and that keeps companies like Timney in business. Are you telling me that the average Ruger now has an AccuTrigger class trigger in their mainstream M77? Anyway lets not turn this into a brand fight. I like Rugers, they just need to start coming up to speed. I'm about to dump a bit of money to fix the blasted seven or eight pound trigger of a much loved Mini-14. If I hated Ruger I wouldn't bother and I wouldn't have been looking at that M77 for the past week.

If 1-1.5MOA is the expected minimum performance level commonly found in new hunting rifles, I just may have to consider another purchase!

For ~$500 (see above) you can pick up a Tikka that shoots MOA or less. Savage should be in the MOA range put I can't say from personal experience. The $400 Howa and Weatherby Vanguard are generally capable of 1-1.5 MOA, and Weatherby has an extra cost guarantied sub-MOA version as well. My last range trip with my Howa 1500 in 30-06 and my Tikka T3 Lite in 300WM yielded a 2" group at 200yds for the Howa and 1.5" at 200yds for the Tikka - with off the shelf hunting ammo.

Got any recommendations?

Tikka T3 Lite or Hunter.

 

[73-Captain]

Tired of BAD advice.


Welcome to the forum!!!

Fortunately there are a few REAL experts here. Problem is they amount to a single digit percentage or is it a single percentage.

C.

 

[MisterWilson]

Bad advice doesn't bother me as much about "Sub-MOA groups" from people who never tell you how many rounds were fired.

 

[Limeyfellow]

Of course we also have to make sure the advice we give isn't just

"You suck! Learn to shoot you loser."

 

[Sidetracked]

I agree. The basics, no matter the subject, are often neglected.

Also-
There is always the question of whether or not you need to add self justification to a post. I understand both sides, and often wish many posts had it.

For example:
"I am a very experience shooter, I have accomplished ______ in ______, and know very well that _______ weapon should be doing _________ with ______ load. Does anyone have a theory as to why _____ is happening?"

Or:

"I am new to ______ . I am having problems with _____ . What should I do to improve _____ ."

For those of us that wish to add value to the thread, it really does help to have the information.
On the other hand, having to explain everything in every post gets quite irritating.

For experienced shooters, it can be a catch-22. You don't want to type it out, but if you don't, responses to your post may be way off target; or may be too generic and begginer-esque.

 

[fisherman66]

Are you telling me that the average Ruger now has an AccuTrigger class trigger in their mainstream M77?

No, I'm telling you that my experience runs counter to yours. I'd put my Ruger #1 box stock trigger against the average box stock AccuTrigger for no creep and clean break. I won't win the weight category if the Accu is adjusted, but 4# is fine for my hunting rifle and the worst I think I can do is tie on the other categories. I do agree that the average M77 trigger is less likely to meet my satisfaction level if all I have read is true (free advice and all). A smith adjusted M77 trigger can be a sweet little tripper. The non-accutrigger (Steven's or base Savage) is about as bad as I have fired on a centerfire bolt action rifle of non-military vintage, even a step behind my lever actions.

I will be working on my friend's 110 trigger in a few weeks or sooner trying to smooth things out and get down to near 3# if possible. I hope to get rid of the feeling that I'm sharpening a knife as the sear drags, but since it's not my rifle I will not be polishing anything as I'm afraid to round corners. I believe some dryfiring should help.

My time adjusting is worth something. That opportunity cost should be figured against the cost that a smith would charge for a trigger job or a drop in after-market unit.

Integrated bases and Ruger factory rings go a fair distance in mitigating the trigger expense if one feels inclined.

 

[sholling]

No, I'm telling you that my experience runs counter to yours. I'd put my Ruger #1 box stock trigger against the average box stock AccuTrigger for no creep and clean break. I won't win the weight category if the Accu is adjusted, but 4# is fine for my hunting rifle and the worst I think I can do is tie on the other categories. I do agree that the average M77 trigger is less likely to meet my satisfaction level if all I have read is true (free advice and all). A smith adjusted M77 trigger can be a sweet little tripper.

I think we're on the same page. My entire point was that with exceptions, most mainstream priced (~$500) off the shelf rifles today are blessed with triggers and accuracy that would have required smith work to achieve just a few years ago. It wasn't to bash Ruger, or start a P-contest over the definition of MOA. My point was to agree with the OP that we need more information from the posters before assuming that a new XYZ is at fault and not Uncle Bob's reloads or the loose nut on the end of the trigger.

 

[Dave P]

Now this is bad advise: "also have to have a McMillian stock and a new cryo target barrel"

Anybody who is a real rifleman knows that all barrels also need to be fluted for maximum effect.

 

[funfaler]

It is the American Way.......'spend your way to accuracy'....If you think for a moment that they average American rifle shooter is going to bother to actually SHOOT their rifle to learn, you have been spending too much time on the bar stool

The whole idea and purpose of the Appleseed Project is to get back into the main stream of America, that uniquely American tradition of being good rifle shots.

There is a large amount of ignorance out there on how to drive a rifle, partly because there is a lack of understanding of what most rifles are capable of, and partly because there is a general lack of 'energy' to actually DO something, rather than just talk about it on the internet.

Also, it is a lot easier to tell a fella that his rifle is wrong than his skills are lacking.

I have had the joy of seeing hundreds of folks vastly improve their shooting abilities over just the course of a weekend. It is amazing to experience the change in thoughts, ideas and attitude of the average American rifle shooter when they realize that they can learn to be accurate out to 500 yards......most can not believe their own abilities, and while not easy to achieve, it is much easier than they have been lead to believe it would be.

If you want to get in on the above, either as a shooter or instructor, feel free to PM me. We really need to get this nation back to it's Heritage of being a nation of Riflemen.

 

[Scorch]

I think the OP has a few good points. Many posters do just jump up and offer the kind of input he is describing. Many of the more experienced posters here also jump to conclusions (including me), and that may be related to the "heard it before" syndrome, we've been exposed to firearms for so long that very few problems seem new. But look at the number of things that can affect accuracy of a rifle (relatively few), and compare that to the number of things the shooter can do to negatively affect the rifle's performance (too many to recite). If we always started out the response with "learn to shoot" or "learn to write intelligibly" or some such ad hominem attack, no one would ask for advice anymore. I typically assume the shooter knows how to shoot reasonably well, and that a reloader knows how to make ammo at least as good as factory ammo (I know, not always good assumptions). So from there, there are few places to go for first advice without a good problem statement. I cannot count the number of posts on TFL asking for advice that don't clearly state what the problem is and what has been tried to remedy the issue. So, GIGO.

And yes, rifles today are so far and above the accuracy of rifles from 20 years ago that it is hard to convince someone that a pre-'64 Winchester Model 70 shooting 2" groups was considered an average shooter in its day. I still remember the first sub-MOA group I ever saw from a factory rifle. It was a shocker because it was so rarely seen. Nowadays, if a rifle doesn't shoot sub-MOA, people think there is a problem with it. Sometimes there is, and sometimes it's the nut that holds the gunstock.

 

[Jimro]

Here is my standard advice. I don't think that it is unreasonable.

If your new rifle has groups unusually large and you've made it clear that you aren't new to shooting, this is my test procedure.

o Check the scope and scope base to make sure everything is tight. (they can come loose during recoil)
o Try a different weigh of bullet or brand of ammo (my Savage absolutely hates 180 grain Federal hunting ammo, 6 inch groups at 100).
o Swap to a different scope.

This is for when a good shooting rifle/ammo combo suddenly opens up with no apparent reason.

o Check the carbon marks on the muzzle for concentric gas flow (this is a quick way to make sure your muzzle crown is good). If your rifle got knocked around a bit last hunting season this is the first place to check. Don't recrown just to recrown.
o Swap scopes.
o Check the barrel channel for swelling or obstructions. Wood stocks can swell and warp, synthetic stocks can get twigs or vines jammed in the channel.

If it's a new shooter and new rifle, then going over the shooters technique can help.

o Make sure the barrel isn't resting on anything.
o Make sure they know how to see if they are flinching or not.
o Make sure they know how to use sandbags and sandsock.

If it's an old or milsurp rifle, there is no set of good advice that fits any general situation because the wear and tear on the rifle is such an unknown.

Jimro

 

[Hello123]

A different point of view, occasionally I will get a rifle that won't shoot that well or is not consistent. I get annoyed when folks start making advice to practice more. Info in the post is key. If it says that I am able to stack bullets and shoot actively, then don't suggest that the person needs to practice more.