Thinking about .223/5.56 rifles
- Thread starter HistoryJunkie
- Start date
Crow Hunter
New member
Options in semi auto:
1. AR
Advantages:
-Caliber change with just an upper swap
-Better stock sights (easier to adjust, 2 aperatures)
-Easier to fix if something does go wrong (don't have to send it to factory)
-Many options for customization
-Lower cost, readily available magazines
-Better ergonomics
-Easy to mount different types of optics with removable carry handle
-Carbines come with an adjustable stock
-Used in combat for the last 40 years
Disadvantages:
-No folding stock (I prefer collapsible)
-Direct Impingement (for those that have a problem with it, I don't)
-More "plastic feel"
-Magazines are viewed as flimsy compared to other designs
-Sightline over the bore is higher
2. Mini-14
Advantages:
-More conventional rifle feel (If this is something you want, I don't)
-Magazines are viewed as sturdier (I debate this because in the AR you can get HK magazines and SA80 mags, both are steel like the Ruger and both are less reliable than the standard STANAG aluminum mag, but it is the "internet view")
-Piston operation (if you need this)
-Folding stock available as option
-Ranch rifles come with scope rings to mount a conventional magnified optic
-Viewed as more durable on the internet (I have read the opposite from LEO armorers who have actually had to deal with a large number of them, but it is the internet view, search M4Carbine.net or Lightfighter.net)
-Often lower cost
Disadvantages:
-Not user serviceable without very specialized tools and Ruger does not sell replacement parts to civilians.
-Less ergonomic
-Viewed as less accurate by the internet, I have only experience with 1 of them, and for what it is worth, this was true. I don't know about newer ones.
-More expensive magazines
-Less available for customization
-No military use of any consequence (unless you count the A-team or Bermuda
)
-Sights are not as good, nor are they as easily adjustable
-Rock in magazines are MUCH harder to use from prone and low cover
3. AK in .223
Advantages:
-AK are believed to be more reliable
-Folding stock available
-Often lower cost
-Very overgassed, usually will overcome any variation in ammo and alot of dirt.
-Simple to take apart and field strip (except extractor)
-Quite a few accessories available for customizing
-Extensive military use in the 7.62 & 5.45 forms. Very little use in 5.56 (Poland Beryl maybe?)
-Stamped steel construction
Disadvantages:
-.223 AK's are not all the same (everyone uses a different magazine)
-Not viewed as being as reliable as the AK-47 in 7.62
-Difficult for user servicing. (Contrary to internet lore, AK's can't be built with a rock in a cave nor can you just replace parts like you can with an AR. You need tools and you need gauges to check headspace, not every AK part will fit every AK type. Chinese don't fit Bulgarian and neither will fit Russian. Try to replace the ejector....)
-Poor sights. Particularly for older eyes
-Less ergonomic
-Rock in magazines without a bolt hold open (Even harder than the Mini)
-Harder to mount optics or other accessories
-Heavier than Mini and AR/SCAR
4. SCAR
Advantages:
-Everthing the AR has except accessories and parts
-Piston operation
-Folding stock
-Bolt/carrier/extractor almost identical to AR but better designed (25,000 round bolt life vs 8,000 - 10,000 AR)
-Some military use (only 800 or so were ever fielded), much military testing (several million rounds).
Disadvantages:
-If you think the AR feels plasticy, the SCAR IS plastic....
-More expensive parts, some skill needed for some changes.
-Very expensive
-Some problems with damaging certain optics
-Only STANAG magazines, no PMags or other Non-STANAG mags that will work in ARs.
-Even higher sightline than the AR
5. Bushmaster ACR
Advantages:
-Similar to SCAR
Disadvantages:
-Not as well respected as SCAR for reliability
-Apparently Bushmaster is hard to deal with on parts/accessories
There are other options: Daewoo, ACR, FN FNC, maybe some others. Most are not as readily available as these.
These are of course, my opinions and worth exactly what you paid for them.
1. AR
Advantages:
-Caliber change with just an upper swap
-Better stock sights (easier to adjust, 2 aperatures)
-Easier to fix if something does go wrong (don't have to send it to factory)
-Many options for customization
-Lower cost, readily available magazines
-Better ergonomics
-Easy to mount different types of optics with removable carry handle
-Carbines come with an adjustable stock
-Used in combat for the last 40 years
Disadvantages:
-No folding stock (I prefer collapsible)
-Direct Impingement (for those that have a problem with it, I don't)
-More "plastic feel"
-Magazines are viewed as flimsy compared to other designs
-Sightline over the bore is higher
2. Mini-14
Advantages:
-More conventional rifle feel (If this is something you want, I don't)
-Magazines are viewed as sturdier (I debate this because in the AR you can get HK magazines and SA80 mags, both are steel like the Ruger and both are less reliable than the standard STANAG aluminum mag, but it is the "internet view")
-Piston operation (if you need this)
-Folding stock available as option
-Ranch rifles come with scope rings to mount a conventional magnified optic
-Viewed as more durable on the internet (I have read the opposite from LEO armorers who have actually had to deal with a large number of them, but it is the internet view, search M4Carbine.net or Lightfighter.net)
-Often lower cost
Disadvantages:
-Not user serviceable without very specialized tools and Ruger does not sell replacement parts to civilians.
-Less ergonomic
-Viewed as less accurate by the internet, I have only experience with 1 of them, and for what it is worth, this was true. I don't know about newer ones.
-More expensive magazines
-Less available for customization
-No military use of any consequence (unless you count the A-team or Bermuda
)-Sights are not as good, nor are they as easily adjustable
-Rock in magazines are MUCH harder to use from prone and low cover
3. AK in .223
Advantages:
-AK are believed to be more reliable
-Folding stock available
-Often lower cost
-Very overgassed, usually will overcome any variation in ammo and alot of dirt.
-Simple to take apart and field strip (except extractor)
-Quite a few accessories available for customizing
-Extensive military use in the 7.62 & 5.45 forms. Very little use in 5.56 (Poland Beryl maybe?)
-Stamped steel construction
Disadvantages:
-.223 AK's are not all the same (everyone uses a different magazine)
-Not viewed as being as reliable as the AK-47 in 7.62
-Difficult for user servicing. (Contrary to internet lore, AK's can't be built with a rock in a cave nor can you just replace parts like you can with an AR. You need tools and you need gauges to check headspace, not every AK part will fit every AK type. Chinese don't fit Bulgarian and neither will fit Russian. Try to replace the ejector....
)-Poor sights. Particularly for older eyes
-Less ergonomic
-Rock in magazines without a bolt hold open (Even harder than the Mini)
-Harder to mount optics or other accessories
-Heavier than Mini and AR/SCAR
4. SCAR
Advantages:
-Everthing the AR has except accessories and parts
-Piston operation
-Folding stock
-Bolt/carrier/extractor almost identical to AR but better designed (25,000 round bolt life vs 8,000 - 10,000 AR)
-Some military use (only 800 or so were ever fielded), much military testing (several million rounds).
Disadvantages:
-If you think the AR feels plasticy, the SCAR IS plastic....
-More expensive parts, some skill needed for some changes.
-Very expensive
-Some problems with damaging certain optics
-Only STANAG magazines, no PMags or other Non-STANAG mags that will work in ARs.
-Even higher sightline than the AR
5. Bushmaster ACR
Advantages:
-Similar to SCAR
Disadvantages:
-Not as well respected as SCAR for reliability
-Apparently Bushmaster is hard to deal with on parts/accessories
There are other options: Daewoo, ACR, FN FNC, maybe some others. Most are not as readily available as these.
These are of course, my opinions and worth exactly what you paid for them.
toppermost
New member
Where are you?? I see new Mini-14's in the 600 - 700 range every where I shop.
armoredman
New member
The OP didn't say what range he was going to be practicing for, so if it's 100 yards or less, as a get-used-to-the-caliber rifle, a Mini-14 will work just fine. The never NRA version with the shorter heavier barrel is supposed to have superior accuracy over the older ones. I got rid of mine for various reasons, but one was it was sub par in the accuracy department for me as a hand loader. BUT, for someone who ISN'T trying to make 1 hole groups at 200 yards, a Mini-14 would probably be just fine, and well within budget. It will also last quite a while, being a Ruger.
If the AR-15 was the end all/be all of the 5.56mm rifle, the other would simply no longer exist, and I do believe there are many others still in service today.
My personal favorite 5.56mm rifle has nothing in common with AK or AR, not counting the AR magazine adapter kit that was added. That does make cheap mags easy to find, but the original magazines work just fine.
I can't suggest this to the OP as they are currently impossible to find, but will be more available in the future, and base price is over his $900 ceiling.
I cannot stand the AR system, and it's a personal issue with me, and that dadgum SPROINGGGG! in my ears every time I fired it. I qualified with one at 500 yards YEARS ago, and worked on them in Gunners' Mate "A" school, (so happy to find M-14s when I got shipboard!), and I just don't like them. I don't consider myself to have psychological issues, and don't appreciate being labeled as such by someone who knows me not.
If the AR-15 was the end all/be all of the 5.56mm rifle, the other would simply no longer exist, and I do believe there are many others still in service today.
My personal favorite 5.56mm rifle has nothing in common with AK or AR, not counting the AR magazine adapter kit that was added.
That does make cheap mags easy to find, but the original magazines work just fine.
I can't suggest this to the OP as they are currently impossible to find, but will be more available in the future, and base price is over his $900 ceiling.
5.56RifleGuy
New member
That would be . . .
http://www.czechpoint-usa.com/products/rifles/556-x-45-mm/sa-vz-58-tactical/
Right?
http://www.czechpoint-usa.com/products/rifles/556-x-45-mm/sa-vz-58-tactical/
Right?
armoredman
New member
That would be the one, equipped with the AR-15 magwell adapter and the short optics rail plus removable mount, which works well with the Electro Scope I have on it.
Hopefully this will be in full production soon, as I get a lot of buzz on it. Not trying to hijack, just answering the question and pointing out AR's are not the only answer for a 5.56mm rifle.
Hopefully this will be in full production soon, as I get a lot of buzz on it. Not trying to hijack, just answering the question and pointing out AR's are not the only answer for a 5.56mm rifle.
HistoryJunkie
New member
Hey all
Thanks for all the replies and sorry for my late response. As to all the post of about ARs... I'd like to have some range time with one, but around my area, there aren't really any rifle ranges around my area. I've held AR models from DPMS to the more expensive $1200 models from different manufacturers. I didn't care for any of them. I'd be interested in information about M + M 5.56 rifles and maybe the Saiga, but anyone have any idea about the accuracy of these? That's the main reason I'm having a hard time deciding.
Thanks for all the replies and sorry for my late response. As to all the post of about ARs... I'd like to have some range time with one, but around my area, there aren't really any rifle ranges around my area. I've held AR models from DPMS to the more expensive $1200 models from different manufacturers. I didn't care for any of them. I'd be interested in information about M + M 5.56 rifles and maybe the Saiga, but anyone have any idea about the accuracy of these? That's the main reason I'm having a hard time deciding.
Basement-Gunsmith-Z
New member
Don't discard the idea of an ar15
You should think about a Bushmaster such as this one http://www.budsgunshop.com/catalog/...mi-Automatic 223 Remington/5.56 NATO 30+1 Ca/
And if you don't like the feel of plastic get a wood stock to replace the plastic ones such as this http://www.precisionfirearms.com/19.html
You don't sound like you need a rail system, but if you get the urge to hang more crap on an your gun than a christmas tree, just get a rail system. The ar platform is naturally more accurate than the mini 14. The mini 14 is great, but the ar15 is better in many ways. Also, if you decide you want to change calibers, just change the upper.
You should think about a Bushmaster such as this one http://www.budsgunshop.com/catalog/...mi-Automatic 223 Remington/5.56 NATO 30+1 Ca/
And if you don't like the feel of plastic get a wood stock to replace the plastic ones such as this http://www.precisionfirearms.com/19.html
You don't sound like you need a rail system, but if you get the urge to hang more crap on an your gun than a christmas tree, just get a rail system. The ar platform is naturally more accurate than the mini 14. The mini 14 is great, but the ar15 is better in many ways. Also, if you decide you want to change calibers, just change the upper.
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Basement-Gunsmith-Z
New member
Oh i forgot to mention that the mini 14 (just like it's big bro the m1a) is notorious at dinging up brass so if you reload it's an issue, assuming you can find the brass. Mine throws mine like 20 feet away, and with enough practice you can be able to hit the poor sap next to you.
5.56RifleGuy
New member
If you are looking for great accuracy, you probably don't want a saiga. They aren't terrible, but they aren't known for great accuracy. I guess the same could be said for the mini though.
Do you like something with a pistol grip or a standard stock?
Do you like something with a pistol grip or a standard stock?
LockedBreech
New member
Gotta love a gun forum. OP asks for no AR-patten rifles, and a good half of the responses are "No, you're wrong, reconsider the AR."
OP, I love the AR, but since you do not, I suggest the Ruger Mini-14 series.
It's a bit off the map, 5.45 instead of 5.56, but also consider an AK-74 by Arsenal.
OP, I love the AR, but since you do not, I suggest the Ruger Mini-14 series.
It's a bit off the map, 5.45 instead of 5.56, but also consider an AK-74 by Arsenal.
Basement-Gunsmith-Z
New member
I suggested that he reconsider because he was shying away from the ar for an easily fixable reason. If he just doesn't like the ar than he doesn't like it.
Basement-Gunsmith-Z
New member
I forgot to mention the hk93. I love it, not as much as my ar, but i love it. The real "HK" hk93 ar hard to find, but vector arms makes one at a reasonable price. Still has some polymer parts, but feels a bit sturdier than a stock ar. you can also find some wood parts for it, if you prefer the feel of wood, but the ar still has less plastic on it than the hk93.
HistoryJunkie
New member
Thanks again
I have considered the Saiga, and I know it's not highly ranked in the accuracy department I want something that I could expect around 3" moa or so as a requirement, preferably lower. My main problem with the Saiga isn't the accuracy. I hear a lot of you say you can get a Saiga for $300, and I would definitely buy one for that price. Around here in Northern IL(not Chicagoland area), a stock Saiga, if you can even find one in .223/5.56, will cost you $450 - $500. I have fired a Saiga .223/5.56 in stock configuration and I felt it was a pretty nice rifle.
As to everyone telling me about ARs, I am open to your reasoning. Unlike a lot of people, I won't fly off the wall if someone suggests an AR, as long as the said party has something useful to say and isn't pushy. As to pistol grip vs standard configuration, I'm not partial either way. I have shot both and don't really have a preference towards either that would make or break the deal.
Also, I intend to get a reloading set-up for .223/5.56 in the near future if I purchased a rifle.
Whoever posted about the HK-93, I've seen Century Arms versions of that, not held them. Read some pretty bad reviews about the roller system needing to be replaced right out of the box. I imagine Vector Arms' quality is much better about that. How is the accuracy on your HK-93?
I have considered the Saiga, and I know it's not highly ranked in the accuracy department
I want something that I could expect around 3" moa or so as a requirement, preferably lower. My main problem with the Saiga isn't the accuracy. I hear a lot of you say you can get a Saiga for $300, and I would definitely buy one for that price. Around here in Northern IL(not Chicagoland area), a stock Saiga, if you can even find one in .223/5.56, will cost you $450 - $500. I have fired a Saiga .223/5.56 in stock configuration and I felt it was a pretty nice rifle.As to everyone telling me about ARs, I am open to your reasoning. Unlike a lot of people, I won't fly off the wall if someone suggests an AR, as long as the said party has something useful to say and isn't pushy. As to pistol grip vs standard configuration, I'm not partial either way. I have shot both and don't really have a preference towards either that would make or break the deal.
Also, I intend to get a reloading set-up for .223/5.56 in the near future if I purchased a rifle.
Whoever posted about the HK-93, I've seen Century Arms versions of that, not held them. Read some pretty bad reviews about the roller system needing to be replaced right out of the box. I imagine Vector Arms' quality is much better about that. How is the accuracy on your HK-93?
snakestrikeace
New member
If you are not look for an AR my advice would be go for the mini-14 the accuracy issues that many have a problem with are pretty much a non-issue with the 581 and later series.
They also have superb reliability and functioning and sit well within your price range.
They also have superb reliability and functioning and sit well within your price range.
5.56RifleGuy
New member
I don't think that 3 moa is out of the question for a saiga. I think nowadays the saigas trade for more like $400. I haven't seen one for $300 in a while.
http://www.classicfirearms.com/long-guns?manufacturer=103
They also have one in a 20 inch version if that is more to your liking.
http://www.classicfirearms.com/long-guns?manufacturer=103
They also have one in a 20 inch version if that is more to your liking.
HistoryJunkie
New member
Do you think there would be any advantage to a 20" barrel on an AK pattern rifle?