The wisdom of Gale McMillan
- Thread starter dZ
- Start date
warbirdlover
New member
Very wise words dZ!!
In my job before retiring (metallurgical engineer) I knew the guru of this cryogenic process and our company did extensive testing on tooling (supposed to last longer) and gear wear (supposed to last longer). The gears treated definitely lasted longer! The tooling did not show any improvement. I don't know why it would make a barrel more accurate. It "should" make them last longer but a 4140 steel barrel might last longer while a stainless (less ferrite) wouldn't. If you're going to try it, test it. Don't take anyone's word for it working or not working. Including the salesman.
Just something for thought. If something is trapped underneath copper it is no longer exposed to the air (H2O). Therefore it shouldn't cause rust since it takes oxygen to cause rust or ferrous oxide (FeO).
In my job before retiring (metallurgical engineer) I knew the guru of this cryogenic process and our company did extensive testing on tooling (supposed to last longer) and gear wear (supposed to last longer). The gears treated definitely lasted longer! The tooling did not show any improvement. I don't know why it would make a barrel more accurate. It "should" make them last longer but a 4140 steel barrel might last longer while a stainless (less ferrite) wouldn't. If you're going to try it, test it. Don't take anyone's word for it working or not working. Including the salesman.
Just something for thought. If something is trapped underneath copper it is no longer exposed to the air (H2O). Therefore it shouldn't cause rust since it takes oxygen to cause rust or ferrous oxide (FeO).
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That sounds nice, but many years ago, my chrome-moly varmint rifle barrel was ruined because I thought it shot better from a fouled bore and left it in a closet, leaning against a metal sewer vent stack, which must have condensed moisture on it during the winter. When I looked at it in the spring, I could barely see through it! It was badly pitted and it took almost forever for solvent to saturate the rust enough to get a cleaning rod through it. (There was NO rust on the outside surfaces of the rifle, which were protected with Rig.)
Funny thing, though; despite being very pitted, it still shot very well (5/8" prone group at 200 yards). I sold that rifle because I couldn't stand having such a pitted barrel on a rifle.
The key is not that oxygen as a gas can get under the copper, but its the moisture (H20) that can provide enough oxygen to cause rust, and will seep under the copper in various locations, probably carrying firing contaminants to create electrolytic corrosion. Regardless, centerfire chrome moly barrels should be cleaned as soon as reasonably possible after firing.
Twenty-two LR rimfire barrels are not subjected to the same conditions as centerfire barrels, due to the wax applied to them every shot. There are no .22LR bullets manufactured that do not have a wax coating. Some bullet waxes are harder than others, but they are all coated. That's why it's generally safer to buy a used .22LR rifle that hasn't been cleaned than a centerfire with a dirty bore. (Regardless, I like to run a patch through all used bores before buying.)
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Art Eatman
Staff in Memoriam
Copper or no, a dry and clean piece of steel in a high-humidity climate will rust. My aged FIL had several shotguns and rifles which had been in a hall closet for years. I don't know if he had done any preservative oiling before storage, or what sort of cleaning, but there were rust spots inside and out.
saltydog452
New member
This one was saved a few years ago, but I misplaced it. My bad.
Now, it resides in its own uncluttered folder.
Thanks.
salty
Now, it resides in its own uncluttered folder.
Thanks.
salty
Thanks Gale
Was just going through the 'break-in-barrel' youtubes & articles,
and felt 'hmmm is that right?' do you really need to go through
this process that everyone seems to tweek & do a bit different?
What of the guys whose guns run fine without any of that?
Gale, from years yonder, answered all those questions.
Thanks, Gale
Was just going through the 'break-in-barrel' youtubes & articles,
and felt 'hmmm is that right?' do you really need to go through
this process that everyone seems to tweek & do a bit different?
What of the guys whose guns run fine without any of that?
Gale, from years yonder, answered all those questions.
Thanks, Gale
Art Eatman
Staff in Memoriam
Worth a bump.
globemaster3
New member
Hey Art, probably worth a sticky. I remember this one coming back up and the information is never old, never stale, and just as true today as when Gale wrote them. I feel I really missed out on joining after he departed.
And it really got me thinking about the other really knowledgeable ones who used to be here that we don't see much anymore... Zak Smith, Walt Krulek, I'm sure there are others I am forgetting.
And it really got me thinking about the other really knowledgeable ones who used to be here that we don't see much anymore... Zak Smith, Walt Krulek, I'm sure there are others I am forgetting.
There are other debates in the rifle shooting sports that come to mind:
* crimping case mouths on bullets; best or worst for accuracy and reliability.
* neck only or full length sizing for best accuracy.
* what fluting a barrel does for its stiffness.
* how telescopic and aperture sights work.
* crimping case mouths on bullets; best or worst for accuracy and reliability.
* neck only or full length sizing for best accuracy.
* what fluting a barrel does for its stiffness.
* how telescopic and aperture sights work.
Unlicensed Dremel
Moderator
Glad you stickied; thanks.
It may disappoint you to know that McMillan did not know everything.
He made really fine barrels. I doubt that he has as much experience with crappy factory barrels as some of us. I know for a fact that some rougher barrels do benefit from some break in shooting. If you only shoot the finest custom barrels you will probably not have that experience either. But try 50 or 60 factory barreled rifles and see what happens from round one to about round 200.
Quoting McMillian
Posted: 09-25-1999 10:10
The break in fad was started by a fellow I helped get started in the barrel business . He started putting a set of break in instructions in ever barrel he
shipped. One came into the shop to be installed and I read it and the next time I saw him I asked him What was with this break in crap?. His answer
was Mac, My share of the market is about 700 barrels a year. I cater to the target crowd and they shoot a barrel about 3000 rounds before they
change it. If each one uses up 100 rounds of each barrel breaking it in you can figure out how many more barrels I will get to make each year. If you
will stop and think that the barrel doesn't know whether you are cleaning it every shot or every 5 shots and if you are removing all foreign material that
has been deposited in it since the last time you cleaned it what more can you do? When I ship a barrel I send a recommendation with it that you clean it
ever chance you get with a brass brush pushed through it at least 12 times with a good solvent and followed by two and only 2 soft patches. This
means if you are a bench rest shooter you clean ever 7 or 8 rounds . If you are a high power shooter you clean it when you come off the line after 20
rounds. If you follow the fad of cleaning every shot for X amount and every 2 shots for X amount and so on the only thing you are accomplishing is
shortening the life of the barrel by the amount of rounds you shot during this process. I always say Monkey see Monkey do, now I will wait on the
flames but before you write them, Please include what you think is happening inside your barrel during break in that is worth the expense and time you
are spending during break in
He made really fine barrels. I doubt that he has as much experience with crappy factory barrels as some of us. I know for a fact that some rougher barrels do benefit from some break in shooting. If you only shoot the finest custom barrels you will probably not have that experience either. But try 50 or 60 factory barreled rifles and see what happens from round one to about round 200.
Quoting McMillian
Posted: 09-25-1999 10:10
The break in fad was started by a fellow I helped get started in the barrel business . He started putting a set of break in instructions in ever barrel he
shipped. One came into the shop to be installed and I read it and the next time I saw him I asked him What was with this break in crap?. His answer
was Mac, My share of the market is about 700 barrels a year. I cater to the target crowd and they shoot a barrel about 3000 rounds before they
change it. If each one uses up 100 rounds of each barrel breaking it in you can figure out how many more barrels I will get to make each year. If you
will stop and think that the barrel doesn't know whether you are cleaning it every shot or every 5 shots and if you are removing all foreign material that
has been deposited in it since the last time you cleaned it what more can you do? When I ship a barrel I send a recommendation with it that you clean it
ever chance you get with a brass brush pushed through it at least 12 times with a good solvent and followed by two and only 2 soft patches. This
means if you are a bench rest shooter you clean ever 7 or 8 rounds . If you are a high power shooter you clean it when you come off the line after 20
rounds. If you follow the fad of cleaning every shot for X amount and every 2 shots for X amount and so on the only thing you are accomplishing is
shortening the life of the barrel by the amount of rounds you shot during this process. I always say Monkey see Monkey do, now I will wait on the
flames but before you write them, Please include what you think is happening inside your barrel during break in that is worth the expense and time you
are spending during break in
Jim Watson
New member
I have broken in two name brand replacement barrels by the makers' recommendations. While doing the shoot and wipe ritual, I was also chronographing the loads and adjusting the scopes to be ready for match shooting. So those were shots that would have been fired anyhow and "the only thing you are accomplishing is shortening the life of the barrel by the amount of rounds you shot during this process." does not hold water.
BusGunner007
New member
Great thread!
Don Fischer
New member
WOW! That was great. I agree with most of it, especially breaking in a rifle. My understanding years ago about barrels and stress relieving was that all barrels today are stress relieved. I had one in 1967 that wasn't and it widened the group with every shot! I hate that up pressure on the forend and always remove it I don't go through many rifle's so maybe that's why it works for me. I tried breaking in one barrel and to this day don't really know why. It was my 6.5x06 with a Shilen match grade barrel! That's the only one I every did that with and never tried it again. Something that got my attention was his reference to nylon brush's. Turned a rifle over to cast bullet's and was advised to get every speck of fouling out. Used Sweet's on it and just couldn't get a clean patch to quit coming out blue! Finely dawned on me that what I was seeing was the reaction of the cleaner on the brass brush! Switched to nylon and it went away right now. Sound's like I'd really be better off with copper brush's though.
So I'm thinking this all came out of one book? What's the name of it and where might I find it? This was really super. One thing I will say about worn out barrels is that worn out to a competitive shooter is much different than to a hunter, maybe even a gopher shooter. While a quarter inch group won't win many match's if any, it's sure kill a lot of gopher's. My 30-06 barrel is trash. Got if from a dear friend when he died. A gift to himself getting out of the Army in 1944. He shot a lot of corrosive primers in it and it's full of pit's. But even though, it still keeps group's at 1 1/4" and sometimes better, fine for a hunting rifle. Please just don't ask to look down my barrel, it's a night mare!
Have to add about fiberglass, plastic stocks. I hate them. I suspect they are more stable than wood but I think a wood stock properly sealed will not give a swelling problem. And I have pretty much never saw one I couldn't improve on with a good bedding job. The problem I have with those plastic stocks is they are so damn ugly! I hate being seen with one. I think the best idea for stock may well be a wood laminate stock but I find them less that attractive also. But I did see a walnut on walnut one years ago that I liked. Down side is weight! Friend had one in a Rem 660 and that was a heavy rifle.
So I'm thinking this all came out of one book? What's the name of it and where might I find it? This was really super. One thing I will say about worn out barrels is that worn out to a competitive shooter is much different than to a hunter, maybe even a gopher shooter. While a quarter inch group won't win many match's if any, it's sure kill a lot of gopher's. My 30-06 barrel is trash. Got if from a dear friend when he died. A gift to himself getting out of the Army in 1944. He shot a lot of corrosive primers in it and it's full of pit's. But even though, it still keeps group's at 1 1/4" and sometimes better, fine for a hunting rifle. Please just don't ask to look down my barrel, it's a night mare!
Have to add about fiberglass, plastic stocks. I hate them. I suspect they are more stable than wood but I think a wood stock properly sealed will not give a swelling problem. And I have pretty much never saw one I couldn't improve on with a good bedding job. The problem I have with those plastic stocks is they are so damn ugly! I hate being seen with one. I think the best idea for stock may well be a wood laminate stock but I find them less that attractive also. But I did see a walnut on walnut one years ago that I liked. Down side is weight! Friend had one in a Rem 660 and that was a heavy rifle.
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