The use of (and hype around) +P ammunition
- Thread starter simonrichter
- Start date
Dragline45
New member
The only time I will really go out of my way to get +P rounds is for .38 special. In anything else there is really not enough difference for me to go crazy about it, although I am not opposed to using them.
Dragline45
New member
Buffalo Bore in .45 Colt +P. You cannot use them in Ruger New Vaqueros, Colt SAA's, SAA clones, or S&W revolvers in .45 Colt. Only the original Ruger Vaqueros, Blackhawks, Redhawks, and anything chambered in .454 can handle them.
Bart Noir,
Nah, not rabid
it's my first initial and the start of my last name. I've been called, "Bid" most of my life
@ original topic,
My personal preference is heavy for caliber, standard pressure rounds. I like 147 for 9mm, and 180 for .40. I think all of us seem to prefer 230 for .45.
I may very well be mistaken in saying this, but the 124 +P loads seem to be good for hard barrier penetration, but expand & dump energy more aggressively in soft media, penetrating less, in relation to standard pressure 124 or 147. This is splitting hairs, as the difference tends to be negligible.
Nah, not rabid
it's my first initial and the start of my last name. I've been called, "Bid" most of my life@ original topic,
My personal preference is heavy for caliber, standard pressure rounds. I like 147 for 9mm, and 180 for .40. I think all of us seem to prefer 230 for .45.
I may very well be mistaken in saying this, but the 124 +P loads seem to be good for hard barrier penetration, but expand & dump energy more aggressively in soft media, penetrating less, in relation to standard pressure 124 or 147. This is splitting hairs, as the difference tends to be negligible.
PowerPistol
New member
" I'm getting 1250 fps from my G-19 with +p 124 gr bullets. That will match 125 gr 357 mag loads from 3" barrels. "
You are seriously mistaken if you think ANY 9mm even comes close to a full 357 load.
I have chronoed 125 Grain XTP's at 1500 FPS from a 2 1/2 " barrel .
PP
You are seriously mistaken if you think ANY 9mm even comes close to a full 357 load.
I have chronoed 125 Grain XTP's at 1500 FPS from a 2 1/2 " barrel .
PP
SD Handgunner
New member
I recently chronographed a few different 9mm rounds from a 3" Barreled Beretta Nano.
9mm
3.07" Beretta Nano
124gr. Winchester +P PDX1
Date = 7-13-13
Temperature = 81 degrees
1st shot = 1169 FPS / 376 FPE
2nd shot = 1139 FPS / 357 FPE
3rd shot = 1145 FPS / 361 FPE
4th shot = 1152 FPS / 365 FPE
5th shot = 1164 FPS / 373 FPE
Average = 1154 FPS / 367 FPE
Extreme Spread = 30 FPS
Standard Deviation = 7.14
9mm
3.07" Beretta Nano
115gr. CCI Blazer FMJ
Date = 7-13-13
Temperature = 81 degrees
1st shot = 1133 FPS / 328 FPE
2nd shot = 1109 FPS / 314 FPE
3rd shot = 1126 FPS / 324 FPE
4th shot = 1125 FPS / 323 FPE
5th shot = 1131 FPS / 327 FPE
Average = 1125 FPS / 323 FPE
Extreme Spread = 24 FPS
Standard Deviation = 5.57
9mm
3.07" Beretta Nano
115gr. Federal FMJ
Date = 7-13-13
Temperature = 81 degrees
1st shot = 1097 FPS / 307 FPE
2nd shot = 1075 FPS / 295 FPE
3rd shot = 1093 FPS / 305 FPE
4th shot = 1106 FPS / 312 FPE
Average = 1093 FPS / 305 FPE
Extreme Spread = 31 FPS
Standard Deviation = 5.92
9mm
3.07" Beretta Nano
115gr. Rem / UMC JHP
Date = 7-13-13
Temperature = 81 degrees
1st shot = 1046 FPS / 279 FPE
2nd shot = 1040 FPS / 276 FPE
3rd shot = 1048 FPS / 280 FPE
4th shot = 1047 FPS / 280 FPE
Average = 1045 FPS / 279 FPE
Extreme Spread = 8 FPS
Standard Deviation = 3.32
There was quite a bit of difference between the various 115gr. loads I chronographed. However the heavier 124gr. +P Winchester Supreme actually produced higher velocities that the fastest 115gr. FMJ.
I have no idea as to what the differences would have been given a longer barrel but for me at least in the short 3" Barrel the +P Ammo is worthwhile.
Larry
PS I also chronographed some +P vs Standard Pressure .45 ACP Ammo out of a couple different handguns also.
.45 ACP
3.78" Glock Model 30SF
185gr. Remington +P Jacketed Hollow Point
Ballistic Coefficient = .148 / Sectional Density = .129
Temperature = 75*
Date = 6-21-13
1st shot = 1064 FPS / 465 FPE
2nd shot = 1088 FPS / 486 FPE
3rd shot = 1075 FPS / 475 FPE
4th shot = 1068 FPS / 469 FPE
5th shot = 1071 FPS / 471 FPE
Average = 1073 FPS / 473 FPE
Extreme Spread = 24 FPS
Standard Deviation = 5.57
.45 ACP
3.78" Glock Model 30SF
200gr. CCI Blazer Jacketed Hollow Point (Discontinued)
CCI Published Velocity = 975 FPS
Ballistic Coefficient = .139 / Sectional Density = .140
Temperature = 75*
Date = 6-21-13
1st shot = 912.1 FPS / 369 FPE
2nd shot = 934.1 FPS / 387 FPE
3rd shot = 934.1 FPS / 387 FPE
4th shot = 938.4 FPS / 391 FPE
5th shot = 926.4 FPS / 381 FPE
Average = 929 FPS / 383 FPE
Extreme Spread = 21.9 FPS
Standard Deviation = 6.25
.45 ACP
3.78" Glock Model 30SF
230gr. Federal Jacketed Hollow Point
Federal Published Velocity = 850 FPS
Ballistic Coefficient = .148 / Sectional Density = .161
Temperature = 75*
Date = 6-21-13
1st shot = 798.8 FPS / 326 FPE
2nd shot = 802.1 FPS / 329 FPE
3rd shot = 817.9 FPS / 342 FPE
4th shot = 801.6 FPS / 328 FPE
5th shot = 807.4 FPS / 333 FPE
Average = 806 FPS / 332 FPE
Extreme Spread = 19.1 FPS
Standard Deviation = 5.37
.45 ACP
4.6" Glock Model 21
185gr. Remington +P Jacketed Hollow Point
Remington Published Velocity = 1140 FPS
Ballistic Coefficient = .148 / Sectional Density = .129
Temperature = 75*
Date = 6-21-13
1st shot = 11.22 FPS / 517 FPE
2nd shot = 1114 FPS / 510 FPE
3rd shot = 1114 FPS / 510 FPE
4th shot = 1123 FPS / 518 FPE
5th shot = 1128 FPS / 523 FPE
Average = 1120 FPS / 515 FPE
Extreme Spread = 14 FPS
Standard Deviation = 5.00
.45 ACP
4.6" Glock Model 21
200gr. CCI Blazer Jacketed Hollow Point (Discontinued)
CCI Published Velocity = 975 FPS
Ballistic Coefficient = .139 / Sectional Density = .140
Temperature = 75*
Date = 6-21-13
1st shot = 974.3 FPS / 422 FPE
2nd shot = 977.7 FPS / 424 FPE
3rd shot = 995.9 FPS / 440 FPE
4th shot = 970.5 FPS / 418 FPE
5th shot = 970.5 FPS / 418 FPE
Average = 978 FPS / 425 FPE
Extreme Spread = 25.4 FPS
Standard Deviation = 6.07
.45 ACP
4.6" Glock Model 21
230gr. Federal Jacketed Hollow Point
Federal Published Velocity = 850 FPS
Ballistic Coefficient = .148 / Sectional Density = .161
Temperature = 75*
Date = 6-21-13
1st shot = 853.3 FPS / 372 FPE
2nd shot = 840.7 FPS / 361 FPE
3rd shot = 849.9 FPS / 369 FPE
4th shot = 864.9 FPS / 382 FPE
5th shot = 929.9 FPS / 352 FPE
Average = 848 FPS / 367 FPE
Extreme Spread = 35 FPS
Standard Deviation = 7.04
9mm
3.07" Beretta Nano
124gr. Winchester +P PDX1
Date = 7-13-13
Temperature = 81 degrees
1st shot = 1169 FPS / 376 FPE
2nd shot = 1139 FPS / 357 FPE
3rd shot = 1145 FPS / 361 FPE
4th shot = 1152 FPS / 365 FPE
5th shot = 1164 FPS / 373 FPE
Average = 1154 FPS / 367 FPE
Extreme Spread = 30 FPS
Standard Deviation = 7.14
9mm
3.07" Beretta Nano
115gr. CCI Blazer FMJ
Date = 7-13-13
Temperature = 81 degrees
1st shot = 1133 FPS / 328 FPE
2nd shot = 1109 FPS / 314 FPE
3rd shot = 1126 FPS / 324 FPE
4th shot = 1125 FPS / 323 FPE
5th shot = 1131 FPS / 327 FPE
Average = 1125 FPS / 323 FPE
Extreme Spread = 24 FPS
Standard Deviation = 5.57
9mm
3.07" Beretta Nano
115gr. Federal FMJ
Date = 7-13-13
Temperature = 81 degrees
1st shot = 1097 FPS / 307 FPE
2nd shot = 1075 FPS / 295 FPE
3rd shot = 1093 FPS / 305 FPE
4th shot = 1106 FPS / 312 FPE
Average = 1093 FPS / 305 FPE
Extreme Spread = 31 FPS
Standard Deviation = 5.92
9mm
3.07" Beretta Nano
115gr. Rem / UMC JHP
Date = 7-13-13
Temperature = 81 degrees
1st shot = 1046 FPS / 279 FPE
2nd shot = 1040 FPS / 276 FPE
3rd shot = 1048 FPS / 280 FPE
4th shot = 1047 FPS / 280 FPE
Average = 1045 FPS / 279 FPE
Extreme Spread = 8 FPS
Standard Deviation = 3.32
There was quite a bit of difference between the various 115gr. loads I chronographed. However the heavier 124gr. +P Winchester Supreme actually produced higher velocities that the fastest 115gr. FMJ.
I have no idea as to what the differences would have been given a longer barrel but for me at least in the short 3" Barrel the +P Ammo is worthwhile.
Larry
PS I also chronographed some +P vs Standard Pressure .45 ACP Ammo out of a couple different handguns also.
.45 ACP
3.78" Glock Model 30SF
185gr. Remington +P Jacketed Hollow Point
Ballistic Coefficient = .148 / Sectional Density = .129
Temperature = 75*
Date = 6-21-13
1st shot = 1064 FPS / 465 FPE
2nd shot = 1088 FPS / 486 FPE
3rd shot = 1075 FPS / 475 FPE
4th shot = 1068 FPS / 469 FPE
5th shot = 1071 FPS / 471 FPE
Average = 1073 FPS / 473 FPE
Extreme Spread = 24 FPS
Standard Deviation = 5.57
.45 ACP
3.78" Glock Model 30SF
200gr. CCI Blazer Jacketed Hollow Point (Discontinued)
CCI Published Velocity = 975 FPS
Ballistic Coefficient = .139 / Sectional Density = .140
Temperature = 75*
Date = 6-21-13
1st shot = 912.1 FPS / 369 FPE
2nd shot = 934.1 FPS / 387 FPE
3rd shot = 934.1 FPS / 387 FPE
4th shot = 938.4 FPS / 391 FPE
5th shot = 926.4 FPS / 381 FPE
Average = 929 FPS / 383 FPE
Extreme Spread = 21.9 FPS
Standard Deviation = 6.25
.45 ACP
3.78" Glock Model 30SF
230gr. Federal Jacketed Hollow Point
Federal Published Velocity = 850 FPS
Ballistic Coefficient = .148 / Sectional Density = .161
Temperature = 75*
Date = 6-21-13
1st shot = 798.8 FPS / 326 FPE
2nd shot = 802.1 FPS / 329 FPE
3rd shot = 817.9 FPS / 342 FPE
4th shot = 801.6 FPS / 328 FPE
5th shot = 807.4 FPS / 333 FPE
Average = 806 FPS / 332 FPE
Extreme Spread = 19.1 FPS
Standard Deviation = 5.37
.45 ACP
4.6" Glock Model 21
185gr. Remington +P Jacketed Hollow Point
Remington Published Velocity = 1140 FPS
Ballistic Coefficient = .148 / Sectional Density = .129
Temperature = 75*
Date = 6-21-13
1st shot = 11.22 FPS / 517 FPE
2nd shot = 1114 FPS / 510 FPE
3rd shot = 1114 FPS / 510 FPE
4th shot = 1123 FPS / 518 FPE
5th shot = 1128 FPS / 523 FPE
Average = 1120 FPS / 515 FPE
Extreme Spread = 14 FPS
Standard Deviation = 5.00
.45 ACP
4.6" Glock Model 21
200gr. CCI Blazer Jacketed Hollow Point (Discontinued)
CCI Published Velocity = 975 FPS
Ballistic Coefficient = .139 / Sectional Density = .140
Temperature = 75*
Date = 6-21-13
1st shot = 974.3 FPS / 422 FPE
2nd shot = 977.7 FPS / 424 FPE
3rd shot = 995.9 FPS / 440 FPE
4th shot = 970.5 FPS / 418 FPE
5th shot = 970.5 FPS / 418 FPE
Average = 978 FPS / 425 FPE
Extreme Spread = 25.4 FPS
Standard Deviation = 6.07
.45 ACP
4.6" Glock Model 21
230gr. Federal Jacketed Hollow Point
Federal Published Velocity = 850 FPS
Ballistic Coefficient = .148 / Sectional Density = .161
Temperature = 75*
Date = 6-21-13
1st shot = 853.3 FPS / 372 FPE
2nd shot = 840.7 FPS / 361 FPE
3rd shot = 849.9 FPS / 369 FPE
4th shot = 864.9 FPS / 382 FPE
5th shot = 929.9 FPS / 352 FPE
Average = 848 FPS / 367 FPE
Extreme Spread = 35 FPS
Standard Deviation = 7.04
+P, Extreme Shock USA; RCBD....
I, for 1, like the +P & +P+ rounds for protection/duty.
In the 2000s, when I packed a .38spl revolver, I used Speer Gold Dot 135gr JHP +P & the top rated Buffalo Bore lead SWC-HP +P 158gr.
As for the Extreme Shock rounds, I think the business is deader than disco,.
I have seen a few new frangibles to take their place.
I, for 1, like the +P & +P+ rounds for protection/duty.
In the 2000s, when I packed a .38spl revolver, I used Speer Gold Dot 135gr JHP +P & the top rated Buffalo Bore lead SWC-HP +P 158gr.
As for the Extreme Shock rounds, I think the business is deader than disco,
.I have seen a few new frangibles to take their place.
SD Handgunner
New member
Wow that Federal HST +P 124gr. out of your Nano produced almost the same exact velocity the Winchester Supreme Personal Defense +P 124gr. PDX1 did out of my Nano.
Good to know what a person can expect.
Larry
Good to know what a person can expect.
Larry
Theohazard
New member
124 gr. +P 9mm loads can easily exceed 1200 FPS in 4" barrels. Some full-power 125 gr. .357 loads don't reach 1200 FPS in short barrels if you believe the results from the guys at Ballistics By the Inch:
http://www.ballisticsbytheinch.com/357mag.html
SteveBonning
New member
I absolutely love how the Internet has made it possible to have volumes and volumes of information at my fingertips with a few keystrokes. I love how countless forums containing the accumulated thoughts and experience of countless persons on thousands of subjects are available in the same way.
BUT...
This thread is a typical example that if I came to it to learn about the use of +P ammo, I would come away little wiser as it is difficult to separate fact from fiction. I've been reading threads on plus P since first having access to forums and trying to read with an open mind and have read the same truths, half-truths, and outright fictions repeated over and over again with great certainty. Often times what seems to be common Internet lore turns out to be the repeated postings of a small handful of people repeating their held beliefs over and over on every forum available. Is it true? Is it false? Is it merely ubiquitous?
All this technology and we are still left with "Caveat Emptor".
That's correct, primarily because most people still discuss issues with hearsay, 'from my personal experience' and what someone else told them instead of looking at the science and hard data. The data is available for SAAMI standards, ballistics, actual laws as written, and the like, but I rarely see it cited. (edit--except post #26!) Facts and data end most all arguments
BUT...
This thread is a typical example that if I came to it to learn about the use of +P ammo, I would come away little wiser as it is difficult to separate fact from fiction. I've been reading threads on plus P since first having access to forums and trying to read with an open mind and have read the same truths, half-truths, and outright fictions repeated over and over again with great certainty. Often times what seems to be common Internet lore turns out to be the repeated postings of a small handful of people repeating their held beliefs over and over on every forum available. Is it true? Is it false? Is it merely ubiquitous?
All this technology and we are still left with "Caveat Emptor".
That's correct, primarily because most people still discuss issues with hearsay, 'from my personal experience' and what someone else told them instead of looking at the science and hard data. The data is available for SAAMI standards, ballistics, actual laws as written, and the like, but I rarely see it cited. (edit--except post #26!) Facts and data end most all arguments
I also only worry about +p in my 38 special and none of the other calibers. Admittedly, I carry 124gn Gold Dots in +P in my Kahr, and I also had a few boxes of the standard ones of the same weight. I didn't have a chrono with me then but there was noticeable difference in recoil, FWIW.
I used to own an LCP and I seem to remember the manual specifically stating not to use Buffolo Bore in the gun. If I'm not misremembering, its something to think about in guns of certain lightweight constructions. I did check the manual for my LCR though and it mentions nothing about BB or any other manufacturer.
*Edit* It wasn't in the manual, it was an email from Ruger. They say NOT to use ".380+p" and since there's technically no such thing, I'd say Buffolo Bore falls into that category.
I used to own an LCP and I seem to remember the manual specifically stating not to use Buffolo Bore in the gun. If I'm not misremembering, its something to think about in guns of certain lightweight constructions. I did check the manual for my LCR though and it mentions nothing about BB or any other manufacturer.
*Edit* It wasn't in the manual, it was an email from Ruger. They say NOT to use ".380+p" and since there's technically no such thing, I'd say Buffolo Bore falls into that category.
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A goodly number of years ago I called Corbon with a query regarding a load they used to have which was a 110 grain (previously a 115 grain - dont remember which came first) .38 special loaded to plus P plus pressure. I remember that it's performance was very close to 110 grain .357s as loaded by Winchester (nominally 1295 fps from a 4 inch vented barrel). I do not remember the name of who I spoke to at Corbon and therefore cannot quote him, but I remember he said those rounds were loaded to either 27,000 or 28,000 psi, I don't remember exactly. I don't remember what the Winchester 110 gr .357s are loaded to (I did call them, too) but I believe it close to the same, might be a little more but is quite a bit less than the full 35,000 psi standard for .357, since it is a reduced load.
I cannot cite a source better than that except to say I am reporting what I was told as accurately as I can remember it.
Edited to add: Corbon stated in their advertising and any article I read contained the same warning that the Corbon load was to be used in revolvers chambered for .357 only. So, at least some .38 special factory ammo has, in the past been loaded above 21,500 psi and in true +P+ territory.
I like the hot ammo, but you have to have a piece that can handle the pressure.
The 9mm ammo I use for SD is loaded at 1400 fps. The difference between that ammo and standard is huge. It's because of ammo like this that I don't see the point of rounds like 357 sig or 40 S&W anymore.
The cast 357 ammo I get for my woods gun is great stuff too. 180 grain at 1400fps out of a 4 inch barrel. I live in an area with cougars and black bears, so it's nice to be able to carry a 357 and not wonder if it will put down a ****** off animal that size,
The 9mm ammo I use for SD is loaded at 1400 fps. The difference between that ammo and standard is huge. It's because of ammo like this that I don't see the point of rounds like 357 sig or 40 S&W anymore.
The cast 357 ammo I get for my woods gun is great stuff too. 180 grain at 1400fps out of a 4 inch barrel. I live in an area with cougars and black bears, so it's nice to be able to carry a 357 and not wonder if it will put down a ****** off animal that size,
larryh1108
New member
I personally feel that the +P and +P+ ammo is more marketing than helpful. Let's be honest here, how often does the higher pressure ammo really help the common man or woman who buys them "just because". In the real world, how much difference does +P ammo make in a real SD use? Can anyone really say that a life was saved because +P ammo was used instead of target ammo? Yes, HP vs. FMJ ammo does help over penetration but when we talk speed, does it really help? I feel it may hurt the casual SD shooter because follow up shots may suffer. +P ammo is not that big of difference in a real SD situation. It's all hype.
Yes, those who post here know why there is high performance SD ammo and what it does but when I read chrony results and see a 100fps difference I really ask myself if in a true SD situation, does it matter enough to say the difference is what saved my back side? No. We treat a true SD situation like we are Spec Ops with the best advantage we can have when the truth is when you present your firearm, most of the time the offender pees himself and runs away. If you shoot at him, he doesn't know you are using +P super performance ammo. If you hit what you aim at as fast as you can pull the trigger, +P ammo means nothing. It's just like a horsepower war with typical street cars. It's all show, marketing and taking our money for perceived greatness. It's all about the talk, not the end result.
Yes, those who post here know why there is high performance SD ammo and what it does but when I read chrony results and see a 100fps difference I really ask myself if in a true SD situation, does it matter enough to say the difference is what saved my back side? No. We treat a true SD situation like we are Spec Ops with the best advantage we can have when the truth is when you present your firearm, most of the time the offender pees himself and runs away. If you shoot at him, he doesn't know you are using +P super performance ammo. If you hit what you aim at as fast as you can pull the trigger, +P ammo means nothing. It's just like a horsepower war with typical street cars. It's all show, marketing and taking our money for perceived greatness. It's all about the talk, not the end result.
In my experience, finding good SD ammo in 38spl means you're pretty much limited to +P offerings these days. Nyclads and other std pressure rounds either don't exist or are in limited distribution any more. Buffalo Bore offers a few very expensive std pressure loads. Again, I've never seen any on a shelf, just online.
Golden Sabers, Gold Dots, Critical Defense and Hydra Shocks are all +P and much more widely available.
Golden Sabers, Gold Dots, Critical Defense and Hydra Shocks are all +P and much more widely available.
If Corbon admitted to selling ammo over SAAMI max allowable pressures I am surprised. Still, 27 or 28 ain't 35.
My (and remember I don't actually exceed allowable pressures) top 38 Special load pushes a 125 JHP to 1150 FPS from a 4" revolver. Not a pressure barrel, a real life 4" revolver. My top 125 JHP 357 load runs at 1725 FPS from a 5" barrel. Even discounting the inch difference in barrel lengths the 38 is nowhere near the Magnum.
I have been hearing this "the 38 is near the 357" business for four decades. No, it is not. Now maybe if weak, watered down on advice of counsel factory 38 ammo is shot through a 6" gun and you compare it to similarly weakened 357s from a 2.5" revolver the difference narrows, but every Magnum load beats a 38 and when both are fully loaded the 38 falls far, far behind. Period. Frankly, I don't understand why anyone would even suggest they are close.
I load my 38s up for carry because I want to enhance expansion. I am not confident that 38 caliber JHPs will reliably expand at current factory levels. I feel much better when the run at the 1,100+ mark.
My (and remember I don't actually exceed allowable pressures) top 38 Special load pushes a 125 JHP to 1150 FPS from a 4" revolver. Not a pressure barrel, a real life 4" revolver. My top 125 JHP 357 load runs at 1725 FPS from a 5" barrel. Even discounting the inch difference in barrel lengths the 38 is nowhere near the Magnum.
I have been hearing this "the 38 is near the 357" business for four decades. No, it is not. Now maybe if weak, watered down on advice of counsel factory 38 ammo is shot through a 6" gun and you compare it to similarly weakened 357s from a 2.5" revolver the difference narrows, but every Magnum load beats a 38 and when both are fully loaded the 38 falls far, far behind. Period. Frankly, I don't understand why anyone would even suggest they are close.
I load my 38s up for carry because I want to enhance expansion. I am not confident that 38 caliber JHPs will reliably expand at current factory levels. I feel much better when the run at the 1,100+ mark.