The Taurus Judge: guys, we gotta talk. Seriously. Rant alert!

[Jim March]

Here's an additional problem: huge patterns...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WGC1ajqSJGo

At "bad breath range" these will put out some hurt. For max effectiveness you have to drop all the pellets in a tight cluster. Back up the range some, even to the "normal gunfight range" of seven yards, and the effectiveness drops significantly.

Again: nothing I've seen has the Judge beating, fr'instance, a Ruger SP101 with five rounds of medium-grade 357Magnum. Or a small 9mm like the Ruger LC9 or equivalent. Not in a single category, except for use against snakes.

In snake country a Bond derringer in .410 as a backup to a real gun starts to look like a very good idea...granted, a more expensive option than just the Judge as the Bond .410s seem to start around $350.

The only Judge that starts to make any sense is the 6.5" barrel version:

http://www.gunsamerica.com/92041834.../Taurus_Judge_Magnum_6_5_barrel_3_chamber.htm

...and even then I'd have a gunsmith take the barrel off and remove 80% of the rifling, leaving just enough at the muzzle to avoid the Federal NFA34 rules. This is called a "Paradox barrel" and it does work quite well.

Problem then is...whoops, it's still a Taurus .

 

[jibberjabber]

So you walk into a biker bar and go "hey guys, check out my new ride!"

Sadly, that's exactly how I got kicked out of my biker club.

 

[44 AMP]

Don't have one, not going to buy one. Would take a gift one, just to check it out. I have a .45/.410 contender, so I have some understanding of what it will do, from a 10" tube it's not bad, slugs are downright fun, but not pinpoint shooters.

The Judge is neither a laser death ray, nor totally useless. No matter what your opinion, consider this, it is a big bore revolver. Maybe not as effective as some, but better than a sharp stick, I'm thinking.

And, as to non owners posting about things, when you start a thread about something, you are free to request only actual owner's opinions. Won't stop every non owner with an opinion, but might cut it down some.

 

[foochacho]

Jim, The bond arms derringer will not have more power than the judge. You lose little power from that gap and gain so much more from the extra 3 inches of barrel, the derringer has no barrel. Trust me I have done the water tests and know many other people claiming the same results the judge will penetrate all four completly and into the fifth. That is from my 3 inch barreled judge the 6.5 barreled judge would do better.

Wood isn't exactly a good indicator of penetration but I find it interesting that it penetrated a 4x4 and destroyed the 2x12. Yes it works better close up as a large clump. I have found some 45 (not cowboy loads 250 grain bullet at 900fps) bullets also stuck only about and inch deep in some 6 inch fence posts. And we all know those get the job done on flesh. I also dug out a 45 in a 2x4 on one of my target stands it didn't penetrate all the way.

The video you linked to with the huge patterns is the wrong load. That isn't the federal premium handgun. If using regular 410 loads then yes the judge sucks the lead deforms and spreads and doesn't reach high velocities ina short barrel. When using the handgun loads the balls are copper plated and don't deform keeping a tight pattern 3" at 7 yards about 8" at 20 yards. The video you posted spread alot and I agree that is rediculous that is why I only use federal premium handgun loads.
http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=437795&page=2
Look at post number 43 last pic shows three rounds of federal premium. The big holes are the shot wad the rest you can see the tight grouping of each 4 balled cluster. That is a big difference from that other stuff you linked too.

 

[foochacho]

Mleake, How is my claim bogus. The diameter is wider than a 9mm,.38,357. you name it I have seen them calipered. And I admitted from the get go last time that it didn't weigh the same. (That is obvious it is a round ball). Buckshot will lose velocity alot quicker than a bullet due to the shape and lack of weight but at SD pistol ranges it won't make much difference. The diameter is what matters for the hole it makes not the length of the projectile. This makes the judge a great HD gun because it has the power to penetrate enough flesh but will be slowed and stopped quicker if you miss. I don't have to worry about the neighbors as much because the walls and distance will slow it quicker than a standard bullet.

Due to the shape of my house at most I would fire at someone 25 feet away but most likely within 15. At 25 feet the federal load will group 3-4 inches and still penetrate with plenty of force. At about 10 feet the grouping looks like one huge wad about the size of a golf ball getting great penetration. That beats a .45 If someone breaks in I will grab the judge loaded with ooo buck. My 1911 can be my back up. It is more accurate but I won't be taking 30-50 yard shots.

 

[cracked91]

For some reason, EVERY SINGLE BAD REPORT I have heard about a Judge, is from a non judge owner. 70% coming from people who have never even shot one.

That said. . .

Jim, I like reading your stuff, I believe you generally know more about what your posting about than 99% of the people on this forum. But from my point of view, if you really want to put some fuel in the tank of this (or any other rant) you gotta get out there and actually put a box or two of ammo through a weapon before you slam it.

 

[Ryder]

Nice bike.... Beats the heck out of walkin, don't it?

I reckon as long as they're happy with their gun that's all that matters. I've been criticized for showing off a $2300 gun. Wouldn't expect any difference for a $200 one. Course, most people just don't comment at all when they have nothing nice to say. Maybe that's why my post count is so low? And maybe I said too much already.

 

[natman]

For some reason, EVERY SINGLE BAD REPORT I have heard about a Judge, is from a non judge owner. 70% coming from people who have never even shot one.

That said. . .

Jim, I like reading your stuff, I believe you generally know more about what your posting about than 99% of the people on this forum. But from my point of view, if you really want to put some fuel in the tank of this (or any other rant) you gotta get out there and actually put a box or two of ammo through a weapon before you slam it.

AGAIN with this witless argument. No, I don't have to buy a gun in order to criticize it, any more than I have to put dog do in my mouth to know I don't want to eat it. You could turn it around and say that the positive reports about the Judge only come from people who were foolish enough to buy one in the first place and are now defending it.

Got a specific disagreement with the OP's criticisms? Then make it.

 

[shortwave]

Posted by KyJim:

I hear Ruger is coming out with the "President." Compared to others, it's supposed to be very sleek and nice looking but it fires blanks.

The "President" model is going to come out but where it's made will remain a mystery. I did hear there will be "free" health coverage for anyone buying it though.

Posted by natman:

No, I don't have to go buy a gun in order to criticize it.

But don't you think you should have at least shot the gun your criticizing enough to know what your criticizing. First hand knowledge is always better than hearsay.
You may want to go back and read post #30 by kraigwy. Paying special attention to what he actually found with the 45lc.
I've found similar results with the 45lc loads at SD range.
But then again, thats hearsay to those that haven't actually shot one enough to know for themselves.
Also, I have had a blast shooting clays/snowballs with mine as well as many coons/possums out of the barn/garden.

I don't, in any way agree with Taurus's marketing campaign for the Judge being a great SD pistol. IMO, ITS NOT. Would it work for SD, yes, at close range with the right ammo, but there's just to many other guns that will do a much better job.

Research some of the old Taurus Judge threads and you'll find people just thrashing Taurus on how they promoted the Judge as 'the greatest SD pistol you'll ever own' and so on. I read comments such as "what do you expect from Taurus, thats the only way they can sell guns" or "Just goes to show what kind of company Taurus is, making the Judge sound like the greatest SD revolver ever built".
Well, lets all just sit back and watch how S&W promotes the "Governor". Then we can bash S&W and their marketing hype. Should be interesting!

Speaking of marketing hype:

Jim,
I loved your opening post. One of the guys we ride with bought a scooter similar to the one you posted(its not pink, he got a manly color). At any rate, when we're at the clubhouse and he rides in on the thing, we make him 'honorary' Sgt. of Arms' for that day.
Can't wait to show him your post.

 

[natman]

No, I don't have to go buy a gun in order to criticize it.

But don't you think you should have at least shot the gun your criticizing enough to know what your criticizing. First hand knowledge is always better than hearsay.
You may want to go back and read post #30 by kraigwy. Paying special attention to what he actually found with the 45lc.

Like I said, if you have a specific argument, make it. If it's backed up by first hand experience, so much the better.

I just object to the lazy blanket argument that you have to like a gun enough to buy it in order to express an opinion.

 

[natman]

No, I don't have to go buy a gun in order to criticize it.

But don't you think you should have at least shot the gun your criticizing enough to know what your criticizing. First hand knowledge is always better than hearsay.
You may want to go back and read post #30 by kraigwy. Paying special attention to what he actually found with the 45lc.

Like I said, if you have a specific argument, make it. If it's backed up by first hand experience, so much the better.

I just object to the lazy blanket argument that you have to like a gun enough to buy it in order to express an opinion.

Now as far as KRAIGWY's post:

Any gun can be fun if you arn't on some sort of bashing trip.

My wife wanted a Judge thinking it would be great for horse back riding. We live in rattler country. She had a point, she's whacked a couple already, also got some in the yard.

The 45 LCs arn't near as bad as some of you let on, I load 250 grn cast SWCs with 5.4 grns of 231, mild and accurate.

Now you want to talk about fun, I have one of those little clay target throwers where the guy sets on the seat and works the thrower.

Now take the judge with some #6 shot, trip the thrower, draw and fire, see how many clay pigons you can get. Talk about fun.

If you guys would spend more time playing and having fun, and less time bitching, you'll find a use for anything.

I agree that the Judge makes a pretty good snake gun. If you want to buy one because you feel like it or because it's "fun", be my guest.

Where the OP and I find fault with the Judge is when people buy one for self defense, thinking that they've bought some sort of "shotgun in a holster". Taurus encourages this misconception, to the point of irresponsibility. The birdshot that makes such impressive holes in PAPER in Taurus' ads won't penetrate enough for SD and buckshot has some serious issues when fired from a short, rifled revolver barrel.

For self defense you'd be better off with a 45 Colt with a conventional cylinder and longer barrel.

 

[mavracer]

The federal 000 buck Meets the 12" fbi standards and sends 4 .36 caliber (larger than 9mm .355) in one trigger pull. 20 9mm's size holes fired in under 3 seconds when fully loaded with federal 000 buck.

Buckshot will lose velocity alot quicker than a bullet due to the shape and lack of weight but at SD pistol ranges it won't make much difference.

The problem I have with your argument is you are trying to get credit for four 9mm size holes. My 9mm may start as .355 projectiles but the added weight, energy and bullet design they EXPAND to over 1/2" which roughly triples their frontle area =the area of 3 of your buckshot. My 45 ACP 230gr Golddots expand to over 3/4" which is a larger frontal area than all 4 of your buckshot.
The facts would be that your best 410 buck load is like firing 4 380 FMJs at the target. IMHO not all bad as I carry a 32 on occasion . But again IMHO not any better than 45 Colt 250 golddots. Which leads me to another problem with the judge if I want to load the BG down with .364 dia ball a CZ 82 is much better packing size. If I want to pack something the size of the Judge give me a real gun please

 

[4runnerman]

Well, lets all just sit back and watch how S&W promotes the "Governor". Then we can bash S&W and their marketing hype. Should be interesting!

That will never happen,simple because it is a SW. it will be praised as the best gun ever. Sad but True

 

[MLeake]

Foochaco....

... mavracer pretty well nailed it in the post above.

But, as you and I have discussed before, it's not only the difference between initial and ultimate diameters (my 9mm loads go to .55 plus; .45 goes to near .7; haven't checked the .40 yet), but it's also a matter of mass and sectional density. Balls not only decelerate in the air faster than bullets, but they penetrate a lot less in flesh.

So your .36 being bigger than .355, well, that will remain true if the 9mm is FMJ I suppose; but if the 9mm doesn't expand, it will definitely outperform the similar diameter ball in penetration. OTOH, the expanded 9mm round will penetrate as far as the ball will on the ball's best day.

As far as ownership vs hearsay, seriously guys, it's not like there aren't videos and reviews by reliable sources all over the place. The demonstrated accuracy from them with LC or slugs is ok, but nothing to write home about.

The measured at 6 feet target in the photo above in the thread, with .45LC, looks like one of my normal pistol targets in the 7-10 yard range. So at 3.5 to 5 times less distance, it will keep up with my guns? Not exactly stellar... And yet this photo came from a Taurus USA advertisement. If that's the best they can show....

 

[Leejack]

Yet another Judge bashing thread?

This is a waste of bandwidth.

 

[hogcowboy]

Maybe it's time for the Mythbusters to do a segment using a pig. Would that stop the controversy.

 

[Mike Irwin]

"Yet another Judge bashing thread?

This is a waste of bandwidth."


Couldn't have said it better myself.

Every time one of these Judge threads comes up lately I can close my eyes and predict, with a high degree of accuracy, the comments that are going to be made. In many cases, I can predict WHO is going to make them, and at what point in the thread.

Let's give it a rest of awhile, folks.

Closed to maintain my sanity.