The Taurus Judge: guys, we gotta talk. Seriously. Rant alert!

[Jim March]

So you walk into a biker bar and go "hey guys, check out my new ride!" And they come out and see this:

It's not gonna go over too well, is it?

Well when you come around here to talk about your shiny new Judge...yeah...it's kinda like that.

Sigh.

Look, first problem is, it's a Taurus. That's bad enough...high rate of misfire/breakage/quality-lacking stuff.

Second problem, and much more serious as it's shared by the S&W "Governor" is that the ballistics stink:

http://www.genzomedia.com/uploads/2009/09/vespa-lx-150-pink.jpg

Note the "next" button on the bottom. Yeah, it's long, but the story is clear: you can't get these loads to work right out of a 2" rifled barrel.

Look...whenever you buy a gun with a barrel that's abnormally short for the caliber, you have to be picky about ammo. Follow? Most 45ACP loads are meant for 5" barrels, as that's still the most common type. Buy a 3" barrel 45ACP and yeah, you can get it to work, but you'd best be a little more careful in your ammo choices.

Same for 2" barrel 357s, very small 9mmParas, etc.

In this case, the dang thing is supposed to have an 18" barrel. You've got a 2" tube. This isn't a good thing!

Look again at the most "devastating" possible option: the OOO buck loads. Three round balls (that get flattened out quite a bit) each equal to a 32acp in velocity and weight. This is the "big stopper"? Seriously? Even if you up that to five, the dang things aren't going to punch more than 8" or so, less than that if heavy clothes are involved. Sorry, but a single decent 357Mag load out of a 3" barrel SP101 will stomp even the "3 inch Magnum" buck load flat and send it crying home to mama.

The 2.5" "slug" loads are a complete and utter joke. Bullet weight is below 100grs...what we have here is a very loud, heavy and limited-capacity 380ACP. Seriously?

Finally, there's the fallback 45LC option. Yeah, great. Accuracy goes down because the cylinder is grotesquely over-long. And we have a 2" barrel. Whoopee. The 45LC defensive ammo that's available, and there's some good ones, are meant for 4" or more barrels. The shortest 45LC commercially made guns that I know of are in the 3.5" to 3.75" range - "Sheriff's model" single actions. Run too short a barrel and again, you run into expansion failures.

Sigh.

Guys. Seriously. The only role for this kind of thing is a rancher with a major rattler infestation. For that, yeah, I'll grant you, probably the best possible tool. Even then I'd go with the S&W version.

For personal defense? No. Come on, seriously, no. "But I don't have to aim!" Wanna bet? Sigh.

Please...it's...well, it's getting embarassing and it needs to stop.

 

[Shadi Khalil]

Jim,

While I agree with nearly everything you wrote, I see nothing wrong with people buying fun guns. Alot of people seem to have fun with those things. I also agree that if your going to blow the money on an almost useless gun, get the S&W.

 

[THplanes]

If you choose bad ammo, you get bad results just like any other SD round. Choosing the correct round can make a world of diff.

Here's a rant I wrote for the judge haters about a year ago.

I bought the judge as a range toy. But I do like to have some defence ammo for every gun I own. I tried the Win 3 pellet buck load and found it was not suitable. I could not count on all pellets hitting a full size silhouette target beyond 7 yards. I also saw from the box o truth that they would not penetrate adequately. I could not find any of the Fed buck load to try so I settled for silver tips and then corbon DPX. From looking at the BOT and this review

http://mcb-homis.com/judge/index.htm

You can see why the Win load doesn't get much penetration. They flatten out in the barrel and you get a pie plate instead of a round ball. You can see this on a paper target. One hole looks to be from a round nose projectile, the other 2 look like big fat wad-cutters. This same problem would hinder it's performance in a full size shotgun as well. Those flat plates are going to lose velocity fast and won't pattern well out of anything. The S&B buck load does better in the wet phone book penetration test because they stay round. He also gets a much better pattern with the S&B. The velocities he gets don't seem to be correct. The recoil of the S&B (878fps) round is similar to a .45 cowboy load. The Win load has more recoil and other testers have found it to be about 975 fps.

I finally found the Fed load and found that it would hold a 2 to 2.5 inch group at 7 yard. That's good enough for me. The question is will it penetrate. Here's another post on that subject from this thread.

http://www.taurusarmed.net/forums/index.php?topic=26851.0

"recently tested several flavors of 45 LC and 410 ammo in my Judge. I fired through four layers of denim into wetpack (soaked newsprint) from about eight feet.

Winchester Super X 225 grain Silver Tips: One round shed its jacket; jacket found at 10" and the lead at 11". The other round was nicely expanded at 13".

Speer Gold Dots 250 grain HP: Both rounds found at 14" with no expansion.

Winchester Super X 2-1/2" 1/5 oz slug: One found at 12" and one at 15".

Federal 4 pellet 000 buck: Two rounds fired, all eight pellets recovered between 10" and 13".

Paraklese Technologies* 4 pellet 0000 buck: Two rounds fired, all eight pellets recovered between 9" and 15".

Federal #4 shot and Paraklese* BB, all shot found between 4" and 5".

Note that all ammo from Paraklese was overpressure and jammed the cylinder of my Judge after each shot. All ammo has been returned to them for replacement but I haven't received it yet. When new ammo is in hand I'll repeat the test and will include Hornady Lever Revolution 225 grain LC."


Note that this is four layers of denim and into wetpack. So penetration depth will depend on how he does his packs. What's relevant is the comparison of the silver tips and the unexpanded gold dots to the Fed buck load. Penetration is on par with the silver tips and appears adequate to me.

I have the 2.5 inch cylinder version so no test of the 3 inch loads. My brother has the 3 inch chamber version. So I will eventually get around to playing with the 3 inch 5 pellet loads. If the Win uses the same pellets in the 3 inch that they use in the 2.5 inch they will likely flatten out too much. If they do it should show up on paper with holes that look like wad-cutters. Fed is coming out with a 5 pellet 3 inch load that will probably be the best choice.



End of my old post.

I had a rabbit that wouldn't stay out of my garden last spring so I gave the Fed 4 pellet 000 load a try. The shot was a frontal shot at about 7 yds. 2 pellets exited the abdomen about 3/4 of an inch apart. The skin between the pellets was torn and some intestins exited the body. The others exited the hind quarters. All pellets fully penetrated with penetration of 8 -10 inchs of rabbit. Ya, it's only a rabbit. But flesh is flesh, rabbit or human.

 

[Jim March]

This to me is very telling:

Speer Gold Dots 250 grain HP: Both rounds found at 14" with no expansion.

When a Gold Dot doesn't expand like that, it's because it was going too slow. That tells you the short barrel is indeed a problem.

In your second link discussing the Federal four-pellet 000 load, you don't mention if it's from the 2.5" or the 3" version, and your link is broken so we can't check. Go back to wherever you got that link from, right click it, do a "copy link location" instead of copying the broken link with "..." in the middle.

But again: four rounds of .32cal unexpanding round ball...you say 8" or more worth of rabbit? Really? That's a pretty dang big rabbit, ain't it? Maybe it is, I dunno. But even if you are getting 10" or so penetration, is that really an improvement over what a top-level 357 round can do, from a much smaller gun and with much better accuracy?

 

[hardworker]

Yeah, the judge isn't the most useful gun out there. On the other hand, I just find other things to occupy my time with instead of getting worked up over it and finally calling out those who do buy it.

 

[YZR]

Jim,

While I agree with nearly everything you wrote, I see nothing wrong with people buying fun guns. Alot of people seem to have fun with those things. I also agree that if your going to blow the money on an almost useless gun, get the S&W.

I agree with the above post. I have a Judge (no I do not have a pink scooter, but thank you for asking) and it is just that: a "fun" gun. I enjoy shooting it as do my friends and family. I don't carry it for self defense and don't rely on it to save my life.
The same rational can be made for a bad ass Harley by a golfer: "How am I supposed to carry my clubs around on that thing? It's totally useless!"
BTW: Yes, it's a Taurus but it goes bang every time

 

[rodfac]

Key holes at 15' with cowboy loads...Federal buckshot loads that would not penetrate 1x6 fence rails...a trigger that a gorilla would have trouble pulling...and customer service that leaves a lot to be desired. That's my experience with a friend's "Judge". To your point about rattlers, Jim...a long handled shovel is probably easier to wield accurately and doesn't cost $.50 a "shot" to "shoot". If the above appeal to some as a "fun" gun, more power to them. It's not my cup of tea...I'd feel I'd been taken to the cleaners if I'd have bought one.

BTW...had to laugh about the Harley vs golf clubs comment...got the Harley but not the golf clubs...so I guess I'm immune.

JMHO, Rodfac

 

[Sarge]

The Judge is what it is and it is enough for many shooters. Having been to a few gunpowder picnics, I can tell you people do not like being shot- with anything. You put a load or two of 'even' #6's--EVEN from a 2' barrel--between somebody's eyebrows and collar bones, and the change in their priorities will be immediate. The recipient is not going to give a damn about ballistic charts, box-of-speculation or slide rule calculus. He's just going to know his face is on fire, he can't see anything and that he just might die.

The Public Defender is the only Judge that interests me, mainly because it's small enough to carry. I view it as an oddball, oversize 45 Colt snub that will handle 410 shells. I could care less whether it expands hollow-points; the .45 Colt has been selling tombstones for over 100 years, with low-tech 250 grain RNFP's. I'd load mine with SWC's anyhow. I'd probably buy some bargain-store #6's for snakes, maybe some PDX and a few rounds of buck just for the hell of it. My only concern would be that it would keep running.

Of all people March, you should understand 'live and let live' when it comes to weird carry guns.

PS- nice bike

 

[DMZX]

I am not even mildly interested in ever owing a Judge or anything like it.

But I am with Sarge when it comes to weird guns, "live and let live."

What really interest me is why the concept is so popular? They must sell very well or Taurus would not expand the line and S&W would not get in on the action. What draws folks to these things?

 

[danez71]

Of all people March, you should understand 'live and let live' when it comes to weird carry guns.

The only way I could have said that better would be to drop the word "carry" in that statement.


This is the most 'pot call'n kettle black' type thread I've seen in a long
time. Seriously.


Time to think about throwing stones in glass houses.

 

[hornetguy]

novelty and good sales techniques.

 

[tynimiller]

RANT...RANT....RANT....any person of medium intelligence knows the Judge lacks practicality but if guys only bought practical things the American Economy would suffer immensely ! Not even going to touch the Taurus bash...The Judges I've shot and witnessed are a "fun" gun, nothing practical really but I say if someone wants one let them, if someone is looking for a single gun for protection purposes yeah I'd steer them away but besides that let them do as they wish.

 

[Steve_in_SEMich]

Note to moderators:

Please create a thread for members that have an opinion on a firearm they don't own or haven't shot. Then I don't/won't have to wade through all of the posts that provide zero information (to me).

Maybe I'll post "information" about the 11,418 firearms that I don't own....

 

[hornetguy]

seriously, there are quite a few guns that I find, um, less than useful for any of my applications.
Perhaps we should start a "useless-but-fun" thread.

Freedom Arms mini-.22 revolver? Have you ever actually tried to shoot one? I have. Twice. That was enough.

The BFR 45-70 revolver? Seriously?

and, my own personal opinion... any "hand" gun larger than the .454 Casull.
really, how much do you really NEED? Sort of like carrying a Contender for self defense.. or an M-60. (..say hello to my leetle fren...)

I'm not knocking anyone that buys, and shoots any of these.. they just don't make any sense to ME.... but that's what makes life interesting. Variety.
I'm sure there are more..

 

[rantingredneck]

Count me in with the Live and Let Live crowd.....

No use personally for a Judge. A very good friend of mine owns one and has done some water tests with various loads. The results were better than I expected. He also has a farm and it's a great snake-tamer around the chicken coops.

That all being said, I hope Taurus (and now Smith) sell a ton of them. Even if it's a new gun owner sucked into the hype and marketing of a less-than-practical gun, at least it's creating another gun owner. Which, in the end, is a VERY GOOD THING.

 

[mavracer]

I defy any person myself included to stand in front of a person holding a Judge loaded with shot or long colt and let that person shoot you at 15/20 yards!!!

I wouldn't want to stand there and let you throw a bucket of warm cat urine on me either. Does that make a bucket of warm cat urine a good carry weapon?

 

[Jimmy10mm]

Not my cup of tea for sure but it ain't my money. To each his own.

 

[hogcowboy]

Well I own a 2 1/2 Judge. I have shot it, patterned it and know just what kind of damage it can do on 3/4 inch plywood. There is no way a person could keep coming at you if you had to use the gun on someone. No, the #5 shot I load and shoot in mine will not penetrate the plywood but the .45 backing the shot up does. And I think that's the point and the reasoning behind the Judge. To slow someone down or make them think twice and have the firepower to back that up. As someone else said, my only concern would be the limited number of shots. 5 should be enough but another 5 would be better. Just my opinion.

 

[MLeake]

The problem with that idea...

... is that there's no legal advantage to "slowing someone down." You've fired a potentially lethal weapon at the person. It could be argued that your choice to use a theoretically less lethal load indicates that you are unsure of whether the shoot was justified.

It could also be argued that if you need to use deadly force, that force should be more reliable.

I don't have a problem with the Judge/Governor concept as a fun gun, or even as a snake weapon. I don't have a problem, per se, with people who think their Judge/Governor is an ok weapon for SD.

I have a serious problem with Taurus/S&W marketing these things as SD weapons. That problem is exacerbated by the perception marketers have created that these things are ideal SD guns for newbies.

 

[4runnerman]

Everytime the Judge comes up as SD weapon,All i see is a bunch of Supermen talking the talk. Do i own one--NO. Is it the best SD weapon-NO. Would it make you think twice on a second step toward some one-YES.