The power of a .22
- Thread starter clayking
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EastSideRich
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I don't think there is much that can be added to this debate. Obviously a .22 can kill a person. I would even be willing to bet, regarding all the xx cal vs (insert scary animal here) threads, a .22 could kill a grizzly bear or mountain lion etc., or at least make it turn and run. In fact a .177 pellet gun can kill - it happened to a little kid a few years back near where I live and a google search of the topic will turn up other instances. That does not mean you should count on a pellet gun or a .22 for that matter to stop an attack.
We all know of instances where a .22 has killed people, we also all know of cases where people have been shot multiple times with larger calibers and lived - even continued to fight. A couple of shots from a .22 quite possibly stop an attacker, then again it might not. Given the choice of a .22 or nothing in a life or death situation, I think everyone would probably choose the .22.
If someone feels comfortable having that be their carry weapon, great - but I'd hate to be the guy who shot someone a bunch of times and still got killed anyway.
I hope this thread goes away soon.
We all know of instances where a .22 has killed people, we also all know of cases where people have been shot multiple times with larger calibers and lived - even continued to fight. A couple of shots from a .22 quite possibly stop an attacker, then again it might not. Given the choice of a .22 or nothing in a life or death situation, I think everyone would probably choose the .22.
If someone feels comfortable having that be their carry weapon, great - but I'd hate to be the guy who shot someone a bunch of times and still got killed anyway.
I hope this thread goes away soon.
Sigma 40 Blaster
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Anyone watch 48 hours on A&E
I saw on TV the other day where a fat guy (about like me 300 pounds, six feet or so tall) was shot with a .22 by a rival gang. This guy was all pudge, he was wearing some Dickies...between his girth and the clothes the .22 LR bullet just bounced off of him.
The actual incident wasn't captured on TV but the guy was plenty scared when the police first came up. He had a wicked bruise on his leg and the actual bullet itself was found on the sidewalk in front of where he got shot. The bullet was barely deformed...
I saw on TV the other day where a fat guy (about like me 300 pounds, six feet or so tall) was shot with a .22 by a rival gang. This guy was all pudge, he was wearing some Dickies...between his girth and the clothes the .22 LR bullet just bounced off of him.
The actual incident wasn't captured on TV but the guy was plenty scared when the police first came up. He had a wicked bruise on his leg and the actual bullet itself was found on the sidewalk in front of where he got shot. The bullet was barely deformed...
As will be most BGs you would have to shoot. How often are you going to outdraw against an already drawn gun - drawn by by an armed BG since he initiated the situation? You won't most of the time. You'll be using it against a knife or some other lethal threat - but not a gun. Hardly any of these SD incidents are running gun battles. One or two shots. Somebody falls, somebody runs. It's over. Most likely, in most cases - including those involving CCW - there's one gun between the two. If you've got the .22 and he's got the knife - he's running or falling.
So, in terms of firepower it's on the bottom, in terms of effectiveness, likely right up there with the big calibers. The one thing you don't have is the immediate physical destruction and awe of being on the other end of .357 magnum. In the times that would make a difference, it wouldn't be as good - but most of this stuff is the shock of being shot by anything or just seeing any gun aiming at you. As the guy who owns the range I go to says: "they ALL look like cannons when they're pointing at you!"
I carry .357 mag or .45 or .38, but it's for theoretical reasons (firepower = stopping likelihood as a THEORY) and the slight added comfort of that. Mostly though because I paid good money for them and want to use the guns therefore. I really don't think though it makes much difference in the real world. And I may eventually, get a .22 or .32 and range-shoot the rest.
seeker_two
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When the subject of the .22lr for self-defense comes up, I always need a little clarification.....
.22lr in a rifle? In a 6" target auto? In a 2" pocket auto?
What kind of ammo? Cheap Wally-World LRN? Match ammo, HV plated HP's?
The .22lr is a different creature in each combination. A 10-22 with a 20-rd. mag full of Velocitors make for a pretty handy SD package for those who can't handle anything with more punch. Even a 4-6" barrel Mk 2 or Taurus 94 is better than a harsh word. But I draw the line at the pocket autos & NAA's--not enough oomf to bet your life on, IMHO. And, if you're relying on the .22lr, don't skimp on the ammo. Get the good stuff. Your life is worth it...
The .22lr doesn't leave a lot of room for error. If you don't place your shots right, your target may not stop quick enough to save your life. And, if your target is behind cover, forget it.
In most cases, there are better choices....
.22lr in a rifle? In a 6" target auto? In a 2" pocket auto?
What kind of ammo? Cheap Wally-World LRN? Match ammo, HV plated HP's?
The .22lr is a different creature in each combination. A 10-22 with a 20-rd. mag full of Velocitors make for a pretty handy SD package for those who can't handle anything with more punch. Even a 4-6" barrel Mk 2 or Taurus 94 is better than a harsh word. But I draw the line at the pocket autos & NAA's--not enough oomf to bet your life on, IMHO. And, if you're relying on the .22lr, don't skimp on the ammo. Get the good stuff. Your life is worth it...
The .22lr doesn't leave a lot of room for error. If you don't place your shots right, your target may not stop quick enough to save your life. And, if your target is behind cover, forget it.
In most cases, there are better choices....
There is some extensive actual test data.
During World War Two the British Special Operation Executive (the SOE) conducted an extensive series of tests of all currently (1942) available handguns to decide what they should arm their agents sent on missions to the occupied countries to kill key German officials and collaborators.
The SOE concluded that a .22 Long Rifle automatic piatol was the best weapon. Their firing technique was to fire 10 rounds into the intended victims upper chest cavity. Agents who did this in the field reported that their victims almost always died very rapidly and were seldom able to cry out or shoot back. That translates into stopping power as well as lethality.ys died very rapidly and were seldom able to cry out or shoot back.
Note that " Agents who did this in the field reported that their victims almost always died very rapidly and were seldom able to cry out or shoot back."
That was stopping power as well as lethality.
During World War Two the British Special Operation Executive (the SOE) conducted an extensive series of tests of all currently (1942) available handguns to decide what they should arm their agents sent on missions to the occupied countries to kill key German officials and collaborators.
The SOE concluded that a .22 Long Rifle automatic piatol was the best weapon. Their firing technique was to fire 10 rounds into the intended victims upper chest cavity. Agents who did this in the field reported that their victims almost always died very rapidly and were seldom able to cry out or shoot back. That translates into stopping power as well as lethality.ys died very rapidly and were seldom able to cry out or shoot back.
Note that " Agents who did this in the field reported that their victims almost always died very rapidly and were seldom able to cry out or shoot back."
That was stopping power as well as lethality.
one thing to think about also is how quickly you can accurately place a .22. Granted, I carry a 9mm for my SD weapon, but when I'm at the range I can put .22s in a tight group about as fast as I can pull the trigger. If I did that with a 9mm my shots wouldn't fall near where I wanted them to. So, imagine you're carrying a .22 and someone who wants you DEAD is coming after you. Put 10 shots COM in a second and you're bound to stop them in their tracks.
Caliber and shot placement are important, but so is accuracy of follow up shots
Caliber and shot placement are important, but so is accuracy of follow up shots
I heard the guy on gun talk radio telling a lady to not bother with the 25acp or the 32acp for self defense, just get a 22LR and practice shooting a lot.
I also read in an old gun book (Something like "guns of the old days") back in the 70s that the 22LR was designed originally as a "Man killer"
It was a really big book that must of had just about every old gun ever made.
I also read in an old gun book (Something like "guns of the old days") back in the 70s that the 22LR was designed originally as a "Man killer"
It was a really big book that must of had just about every old gun ever made.
I know I'm late on this, but...
... the link to the officers killed (http://www.fbi.gov/ucr/killed/2006/table33.html) is somewhat misleading.
The numbers for the 9MM, .40, and 45ACP are somewhat skewed because many of these officers were killed with their own weapons.
The big surprise to me is the 7.62X39 number.
... the link to the officers killed (http://www.fbi.gov/ucr/killed/2006/table33.html) is somewhat misleading.
The numbers for the 9MM, .40, and 45ACP are somewhat skewed because many of these officers were killed with their own weapons.
The big surprise to me is the 7.62X39 number.
imthegrumpyone
New member
I think I said this before, long time ago on American Sportsman. Video of big game hunter 1 shot .22 rifle one dead elephant.
My wife keeps a .357 in her night stand. All I have at this time is a 5" 22/45. I'm pretty sure that I could get off at least 3 shots if the guy kept coming at me because it's pretty easy to control. I know I guy who was shot in the side and then the hand with a .22 handgun and he said it hurt like hell. Gut shots would be worse. That's where I'd aim, because I don't trust my skills enough to try to him between the eyes. No caliber is certain...if a guy is on PCP, you are pretty much screwed no matter what you shoot him with. I'm forced to trust in percentages. That being said, I'm currently saving for a .38 anyway. No matter what happens, if we're invaded the guy is going to be really sorry. I have more confidence in my .22 than in my cattle prod or my bat. I'd rather not get that close, thank you.
I am always amused by the folks who say things like "if you have ever been in a gunfight" or "if you have ever killed anyone" or "it takes x to stop an attacker" when those people themselves have never been in a gunfight, killed anyone, or faced an attacker.
Ain't gunzine reading wonderful?
Jim
Ain't gunzine reading wonderful?
Jim
Boris Bush
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Jim Keenan
So true. I just got back a little bit ago from Iraq. They are more afraid of pistols than our rifles and were more worried about their donkey being shot than themselves......
I do not think I will ever believe anything I read about caliber X or such and such caliber fails because.............. The reason being is that the M4 is way too accurate for what it is intended for, was reliable 100% despite the rough conditions of war, being shot damn near a thousand times before cleaning and never had any troubles taking the life out of the fight for the other side.
Then again I am an Infantryman and not some fobbit that does nothing but dust off their rifle and surf the net about how their issue weapon sucks then come home to say the same thing while never firing a single round...........
So true. I just got back a little bit ago from Iraq. They are more afraid of pistols than our rifles and were more worried about their donkey being shot than themselves......
I do not think I will ever believe anything I read about caliber X or such and such caliber fails because.............. The reason being is that the M4 is way too accurate for what it is intended for, was reliable 100% despite the rough conditions of war, being shot damn near a thousand times before cleaning and never had any troubles taking the life out of the fight for the other side.
Then again I am an Infantryman and not some fobbit that does nothing but dust off their rifle and surf the net about how their issue weapon sucks then come home to say the same thing while never firing a single round...........
I do find it interesting that there is such a disconnect between popular opinions about gunfights and the conclusion of people who seem to either have studied it carefully (as opposed to studying terminal ballistics carefully) or have real experience.
I know a TX LEO who's done an extensive study of police shootings. His conclusions were that surviving a shooting was heavily based on luck but that you could help your odds significantly by:
1. Picking a caliber with sufficient penetration. He was ok with the smaller calibers but recommended FMJ/non-expanding rounds for any caliber under 9mm/.38sp to insure adequate penetration.
2. Shooting more accurate shots than your opponent does. That means:
- Picking a caliber/platform that doesn't unduly hinder your accuracy, rate of fire or capacity.
- Practicing.
I go between a Firestorm FS22 or a Bond Arms derringer for local carry. I live rural so the threat is more from critters than criminals. Though I must admit that if the only carry I could have is a .22, then I would carry my FS22 and not worry too much. In the many years that I've been shooting, I haven't had a misfire yet with CCI Minimags. I also believe in the pyschological effect of a handgun on your average cowardly criminal, and the damage they can do. Provided the criminal doesn't have an agenda to begin with (stalkers and jilted lovers and such).
BTW CK, I love a person who is ready to stand up for his small caliber rights. I carry .380s and catch a lot of crap.
Kevin in Pa
BTW CK, I love a person who is ready to stand up for his small caliber rights. I carry .380s and catch a lot of crap.
Kevin in Pa
Well, today I had a guy flip out on me about refing a 6th grade basketball game. I was calling fouls, and calling it tight, since I was the only ref, and, the two teams were playing a bit rough, one with 4 fouls in a half, the other 11.
The guy came up, told me I was trying to 'control the game',
which is my JOB, and, in other words, I was calling his team for the fouls they committed, and, that wasn't fair.
I gave him a technical foul, since coaches aren't supposed to address refs in the fashion he did, went over and got the assignor, and, the guy promptly slammed the ball off my foot, and, I walked out. I usually carry a can of pepper spray, but, since I was in shorts, I didn't have it with me.
THAT is a mistake I'll never make again. This guy was one inch from going off, and, it would have been a good fight I didn't want to have. I did start training for martial arts and boxing in 1977, and quit in 2002, but, this guy was big, and, I feel WAY out of shape for that kind of event.
Something I need to change.
That said, the irony was a guy I've worked with only a couple times came in, and, he's famous for having a CCW, and, regardless of the situation, always carrying. He's also a ref. He, and another friend, walked me to the car, under the excuse that he forgot to set his car alarm. Thank God for fellow Italians.
I should have asked him how he was carrying, and what.
I guess my question is ways to carry firearms during athletic events????
I guess my 22 short Beretta in thunderwear or a belly band is far better then a sharp stick, and, I'd like to figure out if I could get away with running with a 357 360 PD. Other then the 9mm Kahr, the lesser calibers seem the only choice...
S esq.
The guy came up, told me I was trying to 'control the game',
which is my JOB, and, in other words, I was calling his team for the fouls they committed, and, that wasn't fair.
I gave him a technical foul, since coaches aren't supposed to address refs in the fashion he did, went over and got the assignor, and, the guy promptly slammed the ball off my foot, and, I walked out. I usually carry a can of pepper spray, but, since I was in shorts, I didn't have it with me.
THAT is a mistake I'll never make again. This guy was one inch from going off, and, it would have been a good fight I didn't want to have. I did start training for martial arts and boxing in 1977, and quit in 2002, but, this guy was big, and, I feel WAY out of shape for that kind of event.
Something I need to change.
That said, the irony was a guy I've worked with only a couple times came in, and, he's famous for having a CCW, and, regardless of the situation, always carrying. He's also a ref. He, and another friend, walked me to the car, under the excuse that he forgot to set his car alarm. Thank God for fellow Italians.
I should have asked him how he was carrying, and what.
I guess my question is ways to carry firearms during athletic events????
I guess my 22 short Beretta in thunderwear or a belly band is far better then a sharp stick, and, I'd like to figure out if I could get away with running with a 357 360 PD. Other then the 9mm Kahr, the lesser calibers seem the only choice...
S esq.
I'm surprised nobody has said, "You stand down there and let me shoot you with a 22 then, if it is so weak, lol" like usually happens with these caliber war threads.
My opinion is worth the same as most on here....it is based on no real experience, just reading and what I think.
I am of the mindset that somebody coming into my house isn't trying to hurt me at all costs, they are trying to steal something. If they get shot with anything (probably even an airsoft) they are going to stop in a hurry. I have a 9mm, which I would probably grab if I heard something downstairs. I also have a 22 with a red dot on. I would be very tempted to grab the 22, honestly. I am much more accurate with it, and can empty the magazine in a very short time. I'm 99% confident that would be more than enough to end any situation that happened in my house. And the other 1% is such an unlikely possibility that I'm not going to worry about it.
My opinion is worth the same as most on here....it is based on no real experience, just reading and what I think.
I am of the mindset that somebody coming into my house isn't trying to hurt me at all costs, they are trying to steal something. If they get shot with anything (probably even an airsoft) they are going to stop in a hurry. I have a 9mm, which I would probably grab if I heard something downstairs. I also have a 22 with a red dot on. I would be very tempted to grab the 22, honestly. I am much more accurate with it, and can empty the magazine in a very short time. I'm 99% confident that would be more than enough to end any situation that happened in my house. And the other 1% is such an unlikely possibility that I'm not going to worry about it.
seeker_two
New member
I've had the opportunity to talk with several people who have been shot. Calibers included everything from a .22lr up to a .45ACP (...and he was a juvenile). And I learned a few things....
1. Being shot HURTS! Most used "colorful" language to describe the experience, but the gist was the same. Not one person liked the experience, and none wanted to repeat it.
2. To a person, when they were shot, each person immediately stopped the activity they were doing before being shot. Whether it was cleaning his gun or robbing a victim or attacking a LEO, being shot by any caliber changed the person's itenerary.....
3. The saving factor for each person being shot was a) being shot in an area that didn't cause an instant fatality (i.e. head, heart, spine) and b) having medical care called quickly. Esp. in the cases of SD, the only saving grace for the recipients was inadequate shot placement.
From that, I've pretty much decided that what you hit is more important than what you hit it with. And while larger, more powerful rounds can cause more damage, don't count out the small stuff.
....and, most importantly, I learned DON'T GET SHOT. IT HURTS!!!
1. Being shot HURTS! Most used "colorful" language to describe the experience, but the gist was the same. Not one person liked the experience, and none wanted to repeat it.
2. To a person, when they were shot, each person immediately stopped the activity they were doing before being shot. Whether it was cleaning his gun or robbing a victim or attacking a LEO, being shot by any caliber changed the person's itenerary.....
3. The saving factor for each person being shot was a) being shot in an area that didn't cause an instant fatality (i.e. head, heart, spine) and b) having medical care called quickly. Esp. in the cases of SD, the only saving grace for the recipients was inadequate shot placement.
From that, I've pretty much decided that what you hit is more important than what you hit it with. And while larger, more powerful rounds can cause more damage, don't count out the small stuff.
....and, most importantly, I learned DON'T GET SHOT. IT HURTS!!!
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