The Old Debate: Cartridge Expectations

[T. O'Heir]

The Old Debate sells magazines. You'll note that as of today, there are 20 post arguing about the same thing. snicker.
I can't remember how many times the gun rags have argued about the .45 vs 9mm. Or the .38 Special vs .357.
Bought one of Jack O’Connor's books that is a compilation his Outdoor Life articles published in 1952. (Used book stores are fabulous places.) The .300 Magnum was by H&H or Weatherby until 1963. No .308 family of cartridges. No 'magnumitis'. And the .30-06 or .270 would (and still can) kill any game in North America including big bear.

 

[hooligan1]

I feel confidence is 90% of the choice of cartridges, and I have confidence in 3006, .270 win, 6.5-06, 6.5 Creedmoor, 7 mag, 6.5x55 Swede 7x57 mauser......you understand...

 

[Double K]

I'm over 50 and don't like recoil or heavy guns, the lightweight 6.5's and smaller 7mm rifles are easier to carry around and are easier to shoot accurately for me.

 

[Hawg]

I'm over 50 and don't like recoil or heavy guns, the lightweight 6.5's and smaller 7mm rifles are easier to carry around and are easier to shoot accurately for me.

I'm 63 and don't consider a 30-06 a heavy recoiling rifle. I know some do and I've even seen people complain about a 30-30 which to me has hardly any recoil at all.

 

[Cheapshooter]

Most popular deer hunting cartridges are more than capable of ethically taking deer when the hunter does their part.

And none of the Super Whumper, Whizz Bang have to have "modern" rounds are worth a thing if the hunter doesn't!

 

[BJung]

Two brothers got me interested in high-power rifles and hunting. The first rifle I bought was Lee Enfield. I scoped it and bought a reloading press to make custom rounds for it. I printed a group less than 1" with it. When I showed it to the brothers, one laughed at it. Both brothers used 7RM rifles. The second brother said, "if he knows how to place the bullet in the right place, that's all that counts".

 

[Nathan]

This has changed a lot with me....I started with 30’06 because it was dad’s backup rifle. He actually thought it wasn’t powerful enough and bought a 7mm Rem Mag!

In my old age....47, I realize that I don’t like recoil. I don’t like poor accuracy and I don’t like guns I can’t shoot a box or 2 of ammo through! This has reformed my collection too:

Deer: 6.5x55
Short range deer: 350 Legend
Elk: 300 Sherman

Biggest animals on earth: 458 Lott

 

[RaySendero]

jackstrawIII asked:
So here’s my question: what cartridges do you think are an appropriate “power level” for some of our classic game species?

Deer: 30/30
Elk: 30-06
Moose and Griz: 9.3x62

Been that way for over a century !!!

 

[jackstrawIII]

Deer: 30/30
Elk: 30-06
Moose and Griz: 9.3x62

Now there’s the kind of answer I was looking for. Ps. Kudos for choosing the 9.3x62. Cool old cartridge.

 

[Scorch]

Deer die easily, 32-20 used to be entirely adequate until armor plated deer showed up in the 1960s. Now you need at least a 300 Win Mag according to some.
Elk, pretty tough, they need a little more convincing. 338s are pretty persuasive.
Moose are pretty fragile, people kill them with 30-30s. A 30-06 may be more appropriate.
Black bear are pretty fragile, use whatever you got. Friend of mine who guided in UT carried a 357 snubbie.
Grizzly, I don't care if they need convincing or not, they're getting whatever I can stand shooting. Anything that will eat you and roll around in what's left needs something more.

 

[Double K]

Hawg

A typical 6.5 creedmoor or 7-08 load produces between 10-12ft pounds of recoil, a typical 30-06 recoils almost twice as much at 19-21lb of recoil energy.
You may experience much less from a 30-06 by using light 150gr. bullets and increasing the weight of the gun, a walnut or laminated stock with big heavy scope and steel rings can easily push the gun weight to 10+ pounds', that combination will produce about 14lbs of recoil.
As I said initially though I don't like to carry a heavy gun or get kicked by 30 caliber lightweight.
IMO 30 calibers or bigger are really more for large game like elk and bears, if for some reason you want to use one gun for everything and hunt big stuff as well that's fine.

 

[jackstrawIII]

I’ll answer my own question, as far as I can. I hunt in the north east, which means I’ve shot whitetails.... and that’s it. The heaviest cartridge I’ve used is a 358 Winchester. The lightest is the 7.62x39. And let’s be honest, they all died basically the same. All lung shots, none dropped at the shot and none run more than 30 yards. So... not much difference there.

So, with that summary of my “extensive” hunting experience, here’s what I’d want in my hands for the various popular North American species:

Deer/Antelope/Sheep/Carribou/Black Bear - something around the 308/270 type power level
Elk/Moose - something like a 30-06/7mm mag.
Grizz/Bison - something like a 375 H&H would be cool... but I’ve never shot one so I have no idea what I’m talking about.

 

[jackstrawIII]

Also, several of you guys have been commenting on the topic of recoil. The hardest recoiling gun I’ve ever shot is a 338-06. Maybe 27-28 ft pounds. Not really all that distinguishable from a heavy 30-06 load. It wasn’t pleasant, but wasn’t painful or unmanageable.

How does that compare with something like the 375 H&H or 358 Norma for those who’ve used them?

 

[Double K]

Not exactly a scrub oak or blow down elk rifle but my 7 short mag barely recoils with a suppressor/ brake on it, the gun is relatively light and is brutal without the can.

 

[jackstrawIII]

Deer: 6.5x55
Short range deer: 350 Legend
Elk: 300 Sherman

Love your deer choices. I sold almost all my guns this year, but I had to keep a nice 6.5x55 for deer hunting in nice weather.

Why the Sherman over the other more popular 300 mags? Just cuz?

 

[stagpanther]

How does that compare with something like the 375 H&H or 358 Norma for those who’ve used them?

I don't have either of those but do have a lightweight 375 ruger rifle--slightly faster than the 375 H&H-- with no muzzle device so I figure it's around 45 ftlbs felt recoil with heavier bullets. Hits pretty hard but I hold it differently from other rifles with lower recoil. It's a matter of perspective, a friend of mine who is my same age (north of 60) takes a 416 weatherby magnum on his African hunts--Hawk's table has that one up around 83 ftlbs.

 

[Scorch]

The first time you shoot a 375 H&H is an eye-opener. They kick but it's a longer, slower kick like a 12 ga magnum. Not at all like a 300 Win Mag or 7 mag that stabs you fast and hard. I enjoy shooting my 375 H&H, whether summer in a t shirt or winter in a heavier coat. I don't shoot it much because I just can't take the shot to the wallet with each trigger pull, they cost $90/box! Reloading eases the pain a bit, but my 7X57 costs less than half as much to load.

 

[std7mag]

I must be obsolete...
My cartridges sure are at any rate.
Started hunting with the 30-06.
Now i've upgraded to 250 Savage, 257 Roberts, 284 Win.
I've still got (2) 280 Rems, my 7mm Rem Mag and i still hunt small game with my 410.
Ok, and turkeys with the 410.

Need to get back to my 7mm-08AI.

 

[stagpanther]

They kick but it's a longer, slower kick like a 12 ga magnum. Not at all like a 300 Win Mag or 7 mag that stabs you fast and hard.

Good way to put it, I think of it as being hit by a fullback as opposed to taking a fast karate punch.

 

[Nathan]

Why the Sherman over the other more popular 300 mags? Just cuz?

I know this is splitting hairs, but:
-holds one more round in the mag over a a magnum, 2 more than a WSM
-30-06 plus a bit more (WSM ballistics) ballistics
-shoots 180 -200 gr bullets around 3000 fps
- 40 deg shoulder for all the Ackley benefits....or, at least maximizing volume of the 30-06 case
- great Peterson brass available (280 ai)

Would like to add a 9.3x62, but I don’t hunt that big stuff....might get a Mauser of M70 in that for fun!