The Old Debate: Cartridge Expectations

[jackstrawIII]

Been stuck home sick and have been reading books by Jack O’Connor and Elmer Keith simultaneously. Enjoying both immensely for themselves, but really enjoying how differently the two of them viewed certain cartridges and their effectiveness at harvesting the same game.

This will not surprise those of you who have been around a while, but here’s just one example: the classic 30-06
- Elmer considered it “unsatisfactory” for whitetail deer and advocated several cartridges of 33 and 35 caliber at minimum.
- O’Connor praised it for Grizzly and suggested that it was a bit much for elk

Very humorous.

So here’s my question: what cartridges do you think are an appropriate “power level” for some of our classic game species? Let’s not quibble over similar cartridges, instead give me some examples of what you consider idea for the game where you hunt.

Give me something to read while I’m stuck home and my buddies are out bow hunting without me!!

 

[mikejonestkd]

One of the first hunting/ shooting books I ever read was O'Conner's Complete Book of Rifles and Shotguns. In fact, I still have it and read it occasionally.
I quickly graduated to Outdoor Life and Field and Stream magazine subscriptions in the late 1970s, and have always been a fan of good outdoor writers, including Keith and O'Conner.
IMO I am more in the O'Conner camp.
Whitetails in the east- anything in the .243 win to 7mm-08 range is ideal.
Whitetails and Muleys in the west/ open plains - a good hunt begins and ends with a .270 Winchester.
Elk - anything between a .308 win and a 300 win mag are good choices.

 

[TRX]

> Jack O’Connor and Elmer Keith

...and then you read PO Ackley, who swore the .220 Swift was more than sufficient for anything in North America.

After a several states banned .22 caliber for deer and larger game, Ackley came up with a .23 caliber version of the Swift. Easy enough to do when you're set up to make your own barrels, bullets, and loading dies, but a little extreme for most people.

 

[Scorch]

I have hunted with a 7X57 for the past 40+ years. Never had a complaint about it. With proper handloads (150 gr at 2,700 fps) it is on par with a 308, which is also a good cartridge. I have shot antelope, deer, black bear, pigs, coyotes, ground squirrels, badgers, goats, sheep, and javelina. Would I tackle an elk or a moose with it? Absolutely. Grizzly? Nope, something that wants to spread me out, eat me, then roll on the leftovers needs something more persuasive. But I can say the same about many cartridges out there.

Many people get caught up in what outdoors and gun magazines say, and will condemn anything their favorite writer hasn't endorsed. They fail to realize that outdoors magazines are just advertising dressed up. Anything that will reliably kill the species you are hunting is OK by me.

As far as Elmer is concerned, he thought the 25-35 was a great elk rifle when he carried it up a mountain to kill an elk because it did the job. He also thought bigger and faster was the proper solution to just about everything. I believe in a little more finesse. Although it would work just fine, I don't need a 375 H&H for deer. I also don't want a 25-20 for deer, even though I am sure many have been killed by the cartridge. Choose a cartridge appropriate for the job at hand.

 

[BJung]

My two cents

My choice of cartridges would be based on the firearms I choose. And, the firearms I choose are mostly militaria rifles. Of those, some of the best quality would be the 6.5 x55 or the 7.5x55 (swiss). I have other rifle cartridges like a 7RM which will probably reach out and hit and knocked down almost anything in North American but I'm not fond of the recoil. My choice of the military rifle rifles probably comes from my father. He was a fisherman, had real old and basic homemade gear even, and caught more fish than his rich friends with the newest stuff. He just chuckled about it. Skill is first.

 

[jmr40]

Cartridge capabilities have changed dramatically over the years. As has bullet technology. Better optics, powders, bullets and the use of range finders has changed what we used to consider acceptable ranges. For example when Elmer and Jack were 1st starting the common 30-06 load was a 150 gr bullet at 2700 fps. Today you can buy factory loads at 3050 fps and get handloads safely to 3100.

Any of the 26 calibers with good 140 gr or heavier bullets will kill any animal in North America. That is as small as I'd go on elk, moose, or black bear. And it is smaller than I'd be comfortable with on big bear, but with proper shot placement and good bullets will certainly kill them. The 6.5X55 has been used to take every animal on the plant including elephant since the 1890's.

I used a 30-06 most of my life for everything, but have used 308 for about a dozen years. I'm now of the opinion that my 308 is my "Big Gun", and the 30-06 is really more gun than I'll ever need. I could use my 6.5 CM on everything. I like the round well enough, but just like my 308 rifles better. The bullet you hit them with is more important than the cartridge case it came out of.

The rest comes down to personal preference, how much recoil you're willing to tolerate, how far you're willing and capable of shooting, and availability. Some guys like using older, or less common rounds. Some want to stay mainstream.

 

[buck460XVR]

Most popular deer hunting cartridges are more than capable of ethically taking deer when the hunter does their part. This is the defining characteristic, not the caliber itself. This is why those calibers are so popular. While many folks swear their caliber is the best there is and it may very well be for them, unless they do their part in the hunt, it is not better than anything else.

Use what you are comfortable with, most proficient with and have the most confidence in. In the long run, that will lead to your expectations becoming reality.

 

[Double K]

I like pretty much all the 6.5's and 7mm's that hold 40 grains of powder or more.

 

[BJung]

There is one cartridge I don't own, is underrated and I think has a lot of potential and that is the 280 Remington.

 

[reinert]

Looks like you need a copy of, “Mr. Rifleman,” by Col. Townsend Whelen and Bradford Angier. On page 194 in my book there’s a picture of the Col., along with Elmer and Jack; can you imagine being within earshot of that confab? If you like hunting, history, wilderness camping, rifle competition, reloading, cartridge choices, and thoughts and pictures of many of the Col.’s firearms, then hunt for a copy of this book. I don’t think you’ll be disappointed.

BTW, in pages 204-5, as he was having his own 7MM/06 being built on a M70 action, the .280 Remington came out. So, he said he could use the new factory cases for his custom rifle, saving the trouble of making his own cases from ‘06 brass. He thought the .280 just might be a little cartridge than the ‘06 or the .270 Win. Col. Whelen crossed over the divide in 1961, and left a quote I’ve always held dear; “The 30-06 is never a mistake.” Elmer may have disagreed...

 

[reinert]

I missed adding the word BETTER in my post about the .280 Rem. when comparing it to the .270 and the ‘06; my bad...

 

[jackstrawIII]

Col. Whelen crossed over the divide in 1961, and left a quote I’ve always held dear; “The 30-06 is never a mistake.” Elmer may have disagreed...

He most certainly did disagree, calling the 30-06 “The most overrated cartridge” that he ever used. Granted, his choice in bullets isn’t what most of us would use these days. I do wonder how his experiences would have differed if he was using “modern” bullets like Partitions, Accubond, TTSX, etc.

 

[jackstrawIII]

Another thing that strikes me as comical is that Keith would praise the “300 Magnum” (which is the 300 H&H) at ranges up to 500 yards, while decrying the 30-06 at any distance.... while both cartridges used the same 180 grain projectiles.

There’s a head scratcher.

 

[GeauxTide]

As listed in my sig, I load for a bunch of rifle and pistol cartridges. A favorite is my 280 Remington 700. With 24" barrel, it throws 139 Interbonds into 1/2" @ 2900fps.

 

[Tallest]

I started out with a 30-30, then bought a 30-06, then a 300 win mag. I was younger (late teens and 20s) and easily swayed by the "more is better" line of thinking. I have since left the 30 cal. camp for those who love it more than I can or will.

I am a .284 guy through and through now. I have 7-08 that I love for deer, but I think final stopping point will be .280 Ackley. It will probably a smidge much for VA white tail. But my sister lives and hunts in Montana, and I hope to hunt there, and farther north, many times in the next 30-40 years. I load my own, and I'm convinced I can load the 280 AI for anything I would encounter in North America.

 

[stinkeypete]

The great gun writers wouldn’t be so interesting if they said “let’s face it, a hunter can get by just dandy with a .22, a 12 gauge pump shotgun and a 30-06... and a reloading press. Put down the magazine, book or laptop- let’s go hunting.”

“What, you want more toys? How about a handy lever action carbine for woods hunting? .30-30 is a handy thing, so is .44 Magnum.”

“Ready to take up more challenge, but archery is just a bridge too far? .44 magnum revolver and a Ruger .22 pistol. There ya go, all you could ever need.”

“If you need to reach out really far, you might like 6.5 mm or 270... and if you don’t like recoil, .240 is elegant... but you know, it’s all about selling sporting goods, really.”

 

[BJung]

If you reload and like more bullet selection (or future choices too), the 6.5 and 7mm is a better option to me. A 30-06 is a bit too much for me as my standard rifle. I own a 7rm but it would be used for specific game. Then, there is not use for the band around the base. That's another reason why the 280 seems so attractive. It's a necked down 30-06. As for a woods gun, a 30/30 is very common but given no bars on ammo availability, I like the look of the 35 Remington. It's a necked up 308. That's pretty cool to me.

I once knew two brothers that were hunters. They started with 7rm and swore by them. After a few years, one bought a 25-06 and the other a 243 for deer hunting. It doubled up as a varmint gun I suppose and they said that they didn't need all that recoil.

 

[Hawg]

I'm old school. Sure pretty much any centerfire will put a deer down but a 30-06 does it very well indeed. I started with one. I'll never be without one.

 

[GeauxTide]

I like the look of the 35 Remington. It's a necked up 308

The 358 Winchester is a necked up 308. The 35 Remington was introduced in 1906 and the 308 Win in 1951. The 35 has a smaller head size and less case capacity than the 308.

 

[BJung]

Thanks for the correction. That is what I'm referring to.