The Newest NRA Lawsuits - Texas

Brian Pfleuger

Moderator Emeritus
The Moderator Formerly Known As Antipitas said:
Remember, the federal law does not prohibit the ownership, it just prohibits an FFL from selling a specific firearm to anyone in this age bracket. The Heller Court has already listed the prohibited item as the quintessential tool, preferred by the public, for self-defense.


That's a slam dunk argument, right there, IMO. There is no rationale basis for that regulation. You can own it and use it but only purchase it from certain people? You can buy other, much more powerful weapons, from these same people but the little bitty ones that you can hide, those you can only get from unlicensed individuals?

Total nonsense. Put together with the fact that those 18-20 are allowed EVERY SINGLE other fundamental right and you're left, I think, with a very easy argument.
 
Citizens are either adult at 18 or they are not. If they are not, they cannot be criminally charged as an adult; They can not contract; They can not marry; They can not be sent into a combat zone; They can not be drafted, etc. And we would have to change the Constitution to take away voting rights - The Court cannot do this.
Good point. Really good point.

Getting the RKBA defined as "fundamental" in McDonald is what will make that comparison valid in the eyes of the courts.

Is this your not so subtle way of saying you don't like my real name??
I think it makes you sound like the long-lost brother of Chuck Norris. ;)
 

Al Norris

Moderator Emeritus
Carlos Ray "Chuck" Norris is of Irish (paternal) and Cherokee (maternal) descent. Mine is Welsh (paternal) and German Jew (maternal). If there is any relation, it is very, very distant.
 

publius42

New member
When are you an adult?

18 or 21

Guns vs. liquor vs. driving? Voting, marrying, age of consent?

Life is complicated.

If you murder someone at the age of 18 years plus one day, the courts will see a difference versus murdering someone at the age of 17 years, 364 days. Same if you sign a contract, have an auto accident, get drunk in public, or try to vote.

There is no specifically protected right to drink or to drive on the roads, and I was driving around our farm at about 13.
 
What you would be doing there is attacking the law as denying equal protection under the laws due to the age of the plaintiff (being 18-20). That's going to probably lose. Hard. All the gov. has to prove is a rational basis for the law.....and that basis can be very, very, very, loosely tied to the law.
If we know that anything is off the table for 2A protection for adults, it is the rational basis test.
 

Al Norris

Moderator Emeritus
This thread is slightly over a year old and we have the results of one case in.

Yesterday, in Jennings (was D'Cruz) v. BATF&E, Judge Samuel Cummings denied Jennings MSJ and the .Gov MTD but granted the .Gov MSJ. You can read it here.

On the second amendment question, Judge Cummings quoted and highlighted this passage from Heller:

Like most rights, the right secured by the Second Amendment is not unlimited. From Blackstone through the 19th-century cases, commentators and courts routinely explained that the right was not a right to keep and carry any weapon whatsoever in any manner whatsoever and for whatever purpose. For example, the majority of the 19th-century courts to consider the question held that prohibitions on carrying concealed weapons were lawful under the Second Amendment or state analogues. Although we do not undertake an exhaustive historical analysis today of the full scope of the Second Amendment, nothing in our opinion should be taken to cast doubt on longstanding prohibitions on the possession of firearms by felons and the mentally ill, or laws forbidding the carrying of firearms in sensitive places such as schools and government buildings, or laws imposing conditions and qualifications on the commercial sale of arms.

He then concludes with this:

Considering Heller’s specific exception of conditions and qualifications on the commercial sale of arms from the individual right to keep and bear arms, along with the Fifth Circuit’s treatment of the distinction between possession and dealing of firearms and its exempting young persons from Second Amendment guarantees, the Court is of the opinion that the ban does not run afoul of the Second Amendment to the Constitution. ...

... In essence, it is within the purview of Congress, not the courts, to weigh the relative policy considerations and to make decisions as to the age of the customer to whom those licensed by the federal government may sell handguns and handgun ammunition.

So if the Congress decides that you are too young until you reach the age of, say, 50? then it is quite alright to deny a basic fundamental right. Until you reach that age.

Of course in saying this, Judge Cummings completely ignores Ezell. If in Ezell, the 7th Circuit held that training at a firing range was a corollary right and a ban of firing ranges thus merited "almost strict" scrutiny, then the ability to purchase a handgun for self defense ("in the home"), is also a corollary right and a ban on the purchase of the tool that makes self defense possible, also merits the same scrutiny.

The above logic is inescapable.

This is a case of first impression and Judge Cummings has just signaled that he is too afraid to touch it. Despite having a wide latitude to do just that. So he falls back to the 2A Two-Step.

As for the Equal Protection claim, Judge Cummings dismisses it with rational basis scrutiny (at least he is honest enough to directly say this), because the 2A claim has no merit.
 

JoshM75

New member
While I understand that the Judge's decision references the power of the state to regulate "commercial sale of arms" as set out in Heller. I do wonder the logic of how that interest - in this case - out weighs the constitutional protections for individuals. To me this decision is odd and unexpected. It's also possible that this decision will spawn new regulatory ideas from the Brady ilk.
 
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This is a case of first impression and Judge Cummings has just signaled that he is too afraid to touch it.

I don't think that is the case as Judge Cummings was also the district judge in Emerson and was basically the first judge in the last two decades to find an individual right in the Second Amendment. I'd guess his finding has less to do with fear of rocking the boat and more to do with a genuine belief.
 

JoshM75

New member
I don't think that is the case as Judge Cummings was also the district judge in Emerson and was basically the first judge in the last two decades to find an individual right in the Second Amendment.
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That's very true and IIRC he was the Judge who made a quip during Emerson about owning enough arms to fit out a decent South American coup.

The commentary relating to the "commercial sale of arms" as set out in Heller strikes me as SCOTUS trying to maintain a legal footing for the State to operate - at best - a minimalist regulatory regime. In regards to commercial sales this could likely be envisioned as restrictions on sales to minors, the drunk, or other prohibited persons.

Judge Cummings may well have a genuine belief that who is "prohibited" (in this case 18 - 19 year olds) is a matter for the legislature, but his view is missing the constitutional forest because of the trees.

Hope this case continues on.
 

Eghad

New member
Chapter 13 of the U. S. Code

§ 311. Militia: composition and classes

excerpt....

The militia of the United States consists of all able-bodied males at least 17 years of age and

2nd Amendment excerpt:

" A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free State"

So if we had some fantastic emergency we could see 17 year olds called up for militia duty with the posssibility of being trained and armed by our government. I wonder if this was the case in our early years before we became a a nation and after we became a nation. IN our early days I bet children were taught to shoot for hunting and defense purposes. on the frontier.

You can enlist in the United States Military at age 17 with your parents permission. You can enlist at the age of 18 without you parents permission.

My thoughts are on the matter if you are able to give you life for you country at the age of 18 then you should be able to enjoy the fruits of that liberty. If you enter the military and graduate from Basic Training and AIT you have shown some discipline and responsibility.

If anything an exemption should be made for military personnel under the age of 21.
 

Al Norris

Moderator Emeritus
As I posted on Sept. 30th, Jennings D'Cruz lost at District.

From the PACER docket at the 5th Circuit:
Court of Appeals Docket #: 11-10959 Docketed: 10/07/2011
Nature of Suit: 2440 Other Civil Rights
National Rifle Association, et al v. Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, et al
Appeal From: Northern District of Texas, Lubbock
Opened: 10/04/2011

Note well the name change .... Jennings D'Cruz NRA v. BATFE. The NRA (as an associational plaintiff) have placed themselves ahead of the (actual) plaintiff.

One would think that they have learned by now... Thank you, Chris Cox. :rolleyes:
 

Al Norris

Moderator Emeritus
The NRA has filed its opening brief at CA5.

The NRA rightfully shreds Judge Cummings decision. A might long, but a good read, nonetheless. Very much on target with the historical review.
 

Attachments

  • Jennings_BATFE CA5 Pltf Opening Brief.pdf
    301.4 KB · Views: 30

Al Norris

Moderator Emeritus
On the heels of the NRA 's opening brief, the NSSF has filed an amicus brief today.

They really make a point in calling out the district court in its "public safety" ruling. Best part? Part "C" where they start of with the district court calling 18-20 yr olds, "infants" in light of military service.
 

Attachments

  • NSSF Amicus 2012_12_12.pdf
    165.4 KB · Views: 24

Don P

New member
One might take the road that 18 years are not responsible. Evidence shows not full developed front cortices that inhibit risky behavior. That we let them have guns in the military is ok because they are tightly supervised.

Just a curiosity question as to how they were supervised in the jungles of Nam and in Iraq and Afghan?
 

Armorer-at-Law

New member
One might take the road that 18 years are not responsible. Evidence shows not full developed front cortices that inhibit risky behavior.
Then we cannot risk allowing them to vote, enter into binding contracts, consent to sexual intercourse, get married, etc.

That we let them have guns in the military is ok because they are tightly supervised.
18-20 year-olds are currently permitted to buy long guns from an FFL and to own/use handguns. Only handgun purchases from an FFL are prohibited. How is the distinction justified?
 

hermannr

New member
I don't see it. I was an SSG E6 before I was 21. Closely supervised, yep, by a bunch of 18-20 year olds.

Don't say officer, my dad was a Chaplin (O3) at barely 21.
 

Glenn E. Meyer

New member
Since this resurfaced from something I said - I will remind you that I was bringing forth arguments that might be used against earlier gun rights.

You are foolish if you don't consider opposition positions and how to counter them beyond complaining that you don't like them.

So if the argument is that they are immature but supervised in the service - how do you counter that to extend rights to relatively unsupervised young people.

Yep, the age limit is not crystal clear. We did change the drinking age, BTW.

So if the opposition says that young people are risk takers as shown by:

1. Risky sexual behavior
2. Driving records
3. Drug experimentation
4. The need for tight supervision in the service

- What do you say? If I'm undecided - convince me. Surface validity indicates not to trust young kids. Look at those idiots rioting for Coach Patterno.

See the game. Can't just assume everyone is the choir.

I work in a college and as I said before - I argued for campus carry and heard all the points above. What to you say?
 
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