The Israeli and Desert Storm M16 Record

[BigG]

If Rik was an ossifer...

then 1) algore was a tremendously successful man who declined the presidency for reasons of honor, or, 2) it proves the proverbial ignorance of the Army, of which I am a proud vet, and am entitled to speak from first-hand experience.

I also do not believe his blathering, but that would be characteristic of an ossifer.

 

[George Hill]

Lets all slow down a bit.
No more personal comments from anyone.
This debate will go down in history along with the 9MM vs .45 debate.

All of us have only one perspective. Personal experience.
When I was in the service - I admit - My M-16s WORKED. Well, after I got out of basic - they worked great. CAR-15s, M-16A2s all functioned dang near perfectly.
But then again, in my unit our Armourer walked on water. He polished internals as a hobby. He tuned extractors just for fun. He had a collection of personal tools that he used. I didn't know him personally - but I knew enough OF him to know when he handed me a weapon - I didnt need to worry about its functionality.

After I got out of the service I acquired a Bushmaster, which was regarded as the finest civilian AR you can get.
It worked great at first.
Then problems came up.
Now, I am not an armourer - but I know the AR. I know EXACTLY how to clean and maintain it. My life had depended on it. I wasnt an Officer... just a grunt. 11B, Light I.
We walked EVERYWHERE carrying our weapons. We lived with our rifles. (And boots & socks... always swapping socks!)
Anyways - after spending time with the Bushmasters and Oly Arms and DMPS... My opinion has changed.
.223 is something I can live with if I have to - but an AR?
Not betting my life on it.
I'll take just about ANYTHING over the AR... Prefrence is thus:
M96
HK SL8-1
Mini

I MUST have my auto rifle fire EVERY TIME I pull the trigger.
Slap
Pull
Observe
Release
Tap
Squeeze...
I've had enough of it.

 

[Shin-Tao]

JUST a grunt?

Now we're being modest. Average poor 'ole Army pukes don't fast-rope out of Blackhawks onto South American villas.

Your super-tuned proto-M4s weren't exactly general-issue M16A2s, now were they?

I've seen a little of your record, remember?

 

[George Hill]

I never liked the Fast-Rope method, but it beat being dropped out of the bird much higher up.

 

[Turk]

RVN 68-69 173rd ABN Bdge (Sep)

My M-16 was as issued. Every 30 days the company came in for a 3 day stand down. The 16's and other weapons didn't get turned in we kept them and when we went back to the field they were the same not worked over by the company armorer. But quess what guys?? they went bang when the trigger was pulled.

Turk

 

[Cheapo]

Uhhm, he DID ask about EXPERIENCE. . .

But it sounds like very few of us posting here had experience either in Israel or in Desert Storm, as requested.

Points of fact:
Most horror stories are from the M16, not A1, pre-forward assist, pre-chrome-lined barrel, issued w/o cleaning kits and before the riduculous (but arguably effective) comic-book cleaning instructions.

My daddy told me they spent about a $million on the product improvements to get us the M16A1. A chamber gunked with powder residue and/or surface rust is a BAD thing to have if the only way you have to cram the round in the chamber is to yank the charging handle and hope the spring shoves it hard enough!

The calcium carbonate was to control flash, especially problematic with the old 3-prong flash hider. Olin kept adding the stuff until flash was controlled, without regard for its effect on a direct gas-impingement operating system. This move proved great for the manufacturers of pipe cleaners!

I've *heard* that the A1s and A2s (with correct powder in the ammo) are actually a bit more reliable than the M1 and even the M14 system.

I've also *heard* that the bolt carrier would be lest prone to both powder residue and sand/mud if it rode on twin steel rails (like the AUG's) instead of directly on the inside surfaces of the receiver.

Between the direct-gas system and the way the bolt carrier rides, I see a _potential_ for problems. Even the AK series has the bolt ride on skinny old rails inside that roomy mud-eating receiver.

_BUT_, the one-malf-per-mag report is the only credible story I've heard of problems with the A2. I'd still like to hear more first- and second-hand reports of the Desert Storm experience, so we can verify/quantify whether the forward assist was enough to cure the dust problem, if any problem was common. Once the first round was fully chambered, did the system function properly?

BTW, didn't the Saudis field the Steyr AUG? I'd like to know how that plastic fantastic held up!

My tentative conclusion is that the A1 and A2 systems work well enough in the sand (as long as not drenched in oil!).

Anyone have more clues on the frequency and types of malfs in sandy conditions?

 

[STLRN]

The M16s in my Btry seemed to work in SWA, however most guys in my section cleaned their rifles with MOGAS and lubed them with some dry lube in an orange can that someone father had sent them vice using CLP. After the ground war we also found AK in collapsed bunkers that were so filled with sand that they wouldn't function. But than again there was not a lot of shooting done with small arms since most targets were serviced at distances beyond small arms ranges.

And what up with the officer bashing, So let me get this strait the several weeks of AIT or SOI is so much better training than the 4 months of IOBC or 9 months of TBS/IOC that officers go through. I guess all the additional training doesn't give us a clue on how a weapon functions. Where in the FMF are you playing with MILES all that much. TAVS-C for both divisions had problems equipping a BLT (-) sized element with working MILES last time I tried to check some out.

 

[EchoFiveMike]

Officers need all that training to beat the college out of them BTW I've been to Quantico and would have felt sorry for the poor guys at TBS if I didn't have my own problems at the time. Forget about IOC.
I've never had any major problems with the M16A2, or any of the AR's I've owned or used.(right now I have four(4)) I have made them jam, when we abused them, as in firing well over 300 rounds in less than 10 minutes. Hosing a gun down with CLP to cool it off is not a good thing IMO. But in all honesty, a 7.62x51mm weapon probably would have melted. I imagine that the problem is not with the M16A2 itself, it's just that the guns people got were old and/or FUBAR in some way. Lowest bidder, remember? A F'd up ubergun(your choice) is going to be just as bad as a F'd up AR varient. As for field level use, I never had a gun that worked go Tango Uniform. I've seen guns that have never worked(not mine) continue to not work, even with proper cleaning(my squad, they damn sure were functionly clean!) That leads me to beleive that it was not right in the first place.
This wonderful range advantage that everyone brags about for the 7.62x51(IMO overrated) doesn't mean jack unless you can hit a target. Without optical sights, you're not even going to see a target past 250m unless the BG's are plain stupid and standing up in the open(which is sometimes the case) So until we get optical sights, I don't want to hear sniveling about any potential range advantage possessed by the 7.62x51. I use one(M40A1) it's great for long range with select ammo(M118LR, M852,or M118SB, in my order of preference), but I carry and patrol with a M16A2 because it works best for most engagements that I foresee. You don't need 7.62x51 at 50yds. Semper Fidelis...Ken M

 

[Nightcrawler]

Good Point

Many, many of the M16s the Army gets are NOT made by a premium manufacturer, like Colt, Bushmaster, or Armalite. My 'A2 in basic/AIT was converted from an A1 (could see the A2 stamped over the A1 on the markings) and was made by some company I've never heard of. It only failed me once or twice on the range, though, although I don't believe I fired a single blank through it the whole time I was there. (that was deliberate; nothing is more of a pain in the a$$ to clean than an M16 with blank residue in it). Sold on the civilian market, and AR-15 of comperable condition wouldnt' be worth three hundred bucks, if I might say. The basic training rifles had probably had hundreds of thousands of rounds put through them, and weren't the best. My A1 that I use in the Guards, though, is in great conditon. We only get to fire them live once a year, and we only go on FTX's where you'd use blanks two or three times a year, so, although it's old, it's pretty pristine.

Many people seem to think "mil-spec" means it's the pinnacle of efficency and is battle proven. WRONG-O! Mil-spec means it was built by a government contractor at the lowest available price. Quality oftentimes suffers in favor of quantity, especially with something as needed in mass numbers as a rifle. It's just the way it is. It's that way with any manufactured good in the world. You get good ones and you get bad ones. Eugene Stoner's AR is not a bad design, BUT, there are better ones out there, and I think it's time for the US Armed Forces to tighten their belts, buy one less thirty billion dollar aircraft carrier or one less billion dollar stealth bomber and supply us grunts with some new rifles.

 

[RikWriter]

Shin Tao, you can try to twist my words however you like, but the fact is, beyond a few people who I know by reputation or have met face to face, everyone here is a collection of pixels on a computer screen who could be lying through their teeth or simply writing things from a slanted POV. If you don't keep that possibility in mind when reading these and other gun boards, well...frankly, you're the one with the problem. Hell yes, I value my own personal experience and that of people I know in person over faceless screen names on an internet message board.
Oh, and by the way, before I was an Infantry platoon leader, I was also a regular infantry soldier with a national guard unit while in college.

BigG, if you'd like, I can scan my DD214 into the computer and email it to you...if that would settle your doubts. Course it makes no matter to me whether you believe me or not, as *I* know what the truth of the situation is, and your opinion is, at best, tertiary.

 

[Shin-Tao]

.

 

[George Hill]

Okay - This is OVER.
Rik, buddy, go count to 10 and relax... Shin, you go into time out too...
Everyone else... Its quite time on this subject.
Thread Closed.