Jamie Young
New member
I still haven't gotten an answer about this???? Isn't WC844 Ball powder? I'm almost postitive it is.
[Edited by SodaPop on 01-01-2001 at 11:20 PM]
[Edited by SodaPop on 01-01-2001 at 11:20 PM]
The Israeli and Desert Storm M16 Record
- Thread starter Jamie Young
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PRETTY sure it is ball powder
but it is significantly different from that used in nam. also the guns now have chromed chambers, heavier spring buffers, and are no longer full auto. The 3 shot burst is merely psychological advantage, and hurts the trigger pull. It should be abandoned in favor of the AR, saving extra parts and cost of securing full auto pcs. Main thing wrong with m16 was the full auto. Pancicked troops hosed off all their ammo in 1-2 minutes, overheated the pc. Read THE TUNNELS OF CU CHI, the vc rarely had over 3 30 rd mags for their ak's! Many of the gooks doubted that their ak's could actually kill "those big Americans"
but it is significantly different from that used in nam. also the guns now have chromed chambers, heavier spring buffers, and are no longer full auto. The 3 shot burst is merely psychological advantage, and hurts the trigger pull. It should be abandoned in favor of the AR, saving extra parts and cost of securing full auto pcs. Main thing wrong with m16 was the full auto. Pancicked troops hosed off all their ammo in 1-2 minutes, overheated the pc. Read THE TUNNELS OF CU CHI, the vc rarely had over 3 30 rd mags for their ak's! Many of the gooks doubted that their ak's could actually kill "those big Americans"
Art Eatman
Staff in Memoriam
Hey, SodaPop! It is Football Day, ya know!
The early Colt full autos (weren't they originally called AR-15s before becoming known as M-16s?) were designed for cartridges loaded with IMR powder. The design rate of fire on full auto was roughly 900 rounds/minute.
The Olin Corporation lobbied the Pentagon, to be the supplier of ammo. Their ammo used Ball powder. Its burning characteristics produced a rate of fire of some 1,100 rounds per minute.
Regardless of exact "why" arguments, they did jam in combat situations. As in any argument, fingers were pointed in all directions, including upward with the rigid digit. It was truly a Chinese Cluster Mess.
I have to assume the gas port was reduced in size, in order to reduce the rate of fire. (Today's Ball powder is probably not the same as that of 1965.) Also, the forward assist bolt was developed. As I said before, it's 35 years later, and a lot of development work has been done.
There is a lengthy, detailed article (two parts?) in Soldier Of Fortune magazine, some five-ish or so years back. Names were named, details were given...
While it is not uncommon for people to die in "field testing", I think it's accurate to say that this rifle was put into the field before truly rigorous testing was completed--thus the problems in Vietnam which led to unnecessary deaths. The politics of lobbying didn't help matters.
Hope this helps,
Art
The early Colt full autos (weren't they originally called AR-15s before becoming known as M-16s?) were designed for cartridges loaded with IMR powder. The design rate of fire on full auto was roughly 900 rounds/minute.
The Olin Corporation lobbied the Pentagon, to be the supplier of ammo. Their ammo used Ball powder. Its burning characteristics produced a rate of fire of some 1,100 rounds per minute.
Regardless of exact "why" arguments, they did jam in combat situations. As in any argument, fingers were pointed in all directions, including upward with the rigid digit. It was truly a Chinese Cluster Mess.
I have to assume the gas port was reduced in size, in order to reduce the rate of fire. (Today's Ball powder is probably not the same as that of 1965.) Also, the forward assist bolt was developed. As I said before, it's 35 years later, and a lot of development work has been done.
There is a lengthy, detailed article (two parts?) in Soldier Of Fortune magazine, some five-ish or so years back. Names were named, details were given...
While it is not uncommon for people to die in "field testing", I think it's accurate to say that this rifle was put into the field before truly rigorous testing was completed--thus the problems in Vietnam which led to unnecessary deaths. The politics of lobbying didn't help matters.
Hope this helps,
Art
Dick Culver has somethings to say about the M16 in Vietnam. He was there and experienced the initial problems first hand:
http://www.jouster.com/articles30m1/links.html
General conclusion seems to be that the initial jamming problems were due to several screw ups and have now been fixed by changes in ammo, chrome plating of bores, etc.
M1911
http://www.jouster.com/articles30m1/links.html
General conclusion seems to be that the initial jamming problems were due to several screw ups and have now been fixed by changes in ammo, chrome plating of bores, etc.
M1911
On the early ARs, I won't coment. I only fired one old example that an MP carried because of it's true full auto ability.
On the pampered and tuned civi ARs, I won't coment. I have little experiance with them, I don't know what internal changes, if any, have been carried out on them.
Of powder types, I'll say this. It shouldn't matter what type of powder variant is used. A service rifle shouldn't be so sensitive. Look at the Kalashnikov series.
On the M16A2. This is the rifle I carried. It jammed quite a bit. I'm not talking with the MILES, that doesn't count.
Most of the A2s in my company were jamamatics.
Honestly, I was averaging at least one jam per magazine.
Many had a differant experiance with their rifle. Bravo for them. But how many people complain about AKs jamming? Service issue AKs.
That's my point. The AR can't be called the most robust or reliable service rifle in the world. So it should be replaced.
A rifle based on the AK action, chambered in 5.56NATO and built with suitable quality would be ideal.
That's my entire argument in a nutshell.
On the pampered and tuned civi ARs, I won't coment. I have little experiance with them, I don't know what internal changes, if any, have been carried out on them.
Of powder types, I'll say this. It shouldn't matter what type of powder variant is used. A service rifle shouldn't be so sensitive. Look at the Kalashnikov series.
On the M16A2. This is the rifle I carried. It jammed quite a bit. I'm not talking with the MILES, that doesn't count.
Most of the A2s in my company were jamamatics.
Honestly, I was averaging at least one jam per magazine.
Many had a differant experiance with their rifle. Bravo for them. But how many people complain about AKs jamming? Service issue AKs.
That's my point. The AR can't be called the most robust or reliable service rifle in the world. So it should be replaced.
A rifle based on the AK action, chambered in 5.56NATO and built with suitable quality would be ideal.
That's my entire argument in a nutshell.
Nightcrawler
New member
I'm with you, Shin Tao.
This stuff about "well, it's not the best, but it works" is nonsense. People who put their lives on the line deserve the very best equipment money can buy. I don't care if some of the newer rifles aren't a quantum leap above the modern rifle. If something better comes along than what is issued, then out with the old and in with the new! That's the way I would have it, anyway. As I said, our warriors should have only the very very best. Nothing less.
This stuff about "well, it's not the best, but it works" is nonsense. People who put their lives on the line deserve the very best equipment money can buy. I don't care if some of the newer rifles aren't a quantum leap above the modern rifle. If something better comes along than what is issued, then out with the old and in with the new! That's the way I would have it, anyway. As I said, our warriors should have only the very very best. Nothing less.
You really need to read The Black Rifle
which is the best treatise on the development/implementation of the AR15. It has all the gory details, but some of the big problems with the initial weapons were:
1. IMR powder could not produce the velocity specified within specified pressures, hence the Ball powder, which could.
2. However, ball powder increased the cyclic rate a couple hundred RPMs more than weapon was designed for and had more residue than IMR.
3. Army did not issue cleaning kits with rifle, said it did not need to be cleaned.
4. High humidity caused corrosion of chamber and bore.
Fixes were chrome bore and chamber, different buffer, and cleaning kits. Also, new manufactured ball powder did not need the calcium carbonate which was the major problem with original ball produced from surplus powders, IIRC. Then the weapon became super reliable.
Again, read "The Black Rifle." It has blow by blow documentation of all of these things. This book should be on every AR15 owners bookshelf as a must-read!
which is the best treatise on the development/implementation of the AR15. It has all the gory details, but some of the big problems with the initial weapons were:
1. IMR powder could not produce the velocity specified within specified pressures, hence the Ball powder, which could.
2. However, ball powder increased the cyclic rate a couple hundred RPMs more than weapon was designed for and had more residue than IMR.
3. Army did not issue cleaning kits with rifle, said it did not need to be cleaned.
4. High humidity caused corrosion of chamber and bore.
Fixes were chrome bore and chamber, different buffer, and cleaning kits. Also, new manufactured ball powder did not need the calcium carbonate which was the major problem with original ball produced from surplus powders, IIRC. Then the weapon became super reliable.
Again, read "The Black Rifle." It has blow by blow documentation of all of these things. This book should be on every AR15 owners bookshelf as a must-read!
Scott Evans
Staff Alumnus
I was in the Marine Corps from 1987 to the end of 1991. I found the M-16 A2 to be reliable and accurate everywhere. During my tour I spent nearly a year in Jungle type environments, as much time in arctic / cold weather and mountain type areas, and nearly as much time in desert climates. However, I think the 5.56 is best suited for CQB and personally feel that a main battle rifle should be chambered in 7.62 x 55 or equivalent. The 5.56 does not have the energy necessary for the most likely battle ranges (300-500m). In order to take advantage of the principal of “Stand-off” you need a main battle rifle that can more effectively engage the enemy at distance. Sure the 5.56 is accurate at 500m but lacks the punch necessary to take full advantage of that range.
IMO The lay out of the AR type rifle is very good if not the best yet. I think the Marine Corp should transition to the AR-10 as the main battle rifle while retaining the M-4 for CQB.
IMO The lay out of the AR type rifle is very good if not the best yet. I think the Marine Corp should transition to the AR-10 as the main battle rifle while retaining the M-4 for CQB.
I have discussed the AK with someonone who served with one.
On an exercise once he and his group (all mandatory conscript apes) were out in waist-deep snow. On this exercise, they were to shoot off a few mags full-auto.
Guns were dunked in the snow between magazines to cool them off.
Said apes WERE responsible for the care of their AKs - they had to pay for them if returned in different condition than issued. His went back in same condition as issued. He claimed they DID get all mudded up; but that they would dismantle and clean them after getting back to civilization for this reason.
The guy I was discussing this was NOT a gun nut or defending the Kalashnikov by any means. But he claimed that he had NEVER seen one jam or fail.
Battler.
On an exercise once he and his group (all mandatory conscript apes) were out in waist-deep snow. On this exercise, they were to shoot off a few mags full-auto.
Guns were dunked in the snow between magazines to cool them off.
Said apes WERE responsible for the care of their AKs - they had to pay for them if returned in different condition than issued. His went back in same condition as issued. He claimed they DID get all mudded up; but that they would dismantle and clean them after getting back to civilization for this reason.
The guy I was discussing this was NOT a gun nut or defending the Kalashnikov by any means. But he claimed that he had NEVER seen one jam or fail.
Battler.
Scott Evans
Staff Alumnus
I was with I Co 3rd Bn 2nd Mar, 2nd MarDiv. 0311 also as well as 85?? Marine Security forces.
My first 18 months after Boot Camp, School of Infantry and then Marine Security Forces School (run then by Col. Bob Young now at Gunsite) I was attached To Marine Security Forces Battalion out of Norfolk VA. We trained to guard Special Weapons (i.e. nukes) Facilities and convoys. This job required clearance and an active status in PRP. Great training ! After that I went to 3/2 who at that time were training as a “Raid” Battalion. Heilo casting, fast rope, Rubber boats, and such. More cool training that involved a lot of time in the water and over the beach and more live fire then traditional Victor units. Our unit was also designated as a cold weather unit and we did the Bridgeport Ca, Wisconsin, Norway training cycle. Also did a “Rock” package in Bridgeport, Cax in 29 palms, 6 months in Okinawa, 5 weeks in Philippines, 4 weeks in Korea and 9 months in the Persian Gulf for Desert Shield and Storm.
I never saw a problem with our M-16 A2’s and I absolutely never had a failure of any type. The M-249’s on the other hand and the M-60 E’s were always down. Our unit did all it could do to reacquire M-60 D’s.
As far as the AK’s … sure they fire but what good are they past 300m.
My first 18 months after Boot Camp, School of Infantry and then Marine Security Forces School (run then by Col. Bob Young now at Gunsite) I was attached To Marine Security Forces Battalion out of Norfolk VA. We trained to guard Special Weapons (i.e. nukes) Facilities and convoys. This job required clearance and an active status in PRP. Great training ! After that I went to 3/2 who at that time were training as a “Raid” Battalion. Heilo casting, fast rope, Rubber boats, and such. More cool training that involved a lot of time in the water and over the beach and more live fire then traditional Victor units. Our unit was also designated as a cold weather unit and we did the Bridgeport Ca, Wisconsin, Norway training cycle. Also did a “Rock” package in Bridgeport, Cax in 29 palms, 6 months in Okinawa, 5 weeks in Philippines, 4 weeks in Korea and 9 months in the Persian Gulf for Desert Shield and Storm.
I never saw a problem with our M-16 A2’s and I absolutely never had a failure of any type. The M-249’s on the other hand and the M-60 E’s were always down. Our unit did all it could do to reacquire M-60 D’s.
As far as the AK’s … sure they fire but what good are they past 300m.
Arizona Fusilier
New member
Eight years in the Infantry, and I found the M16A2 superbly reliable. All the points mentioned so far (chrome chambers, IMR vs ball powder, more professional maintenance, etc.) make comparisons to earlier weapons and experiences somewhat, but not completely, unfair.
Many "experts" would suggest that modern combat, as far as the Infantry is concerned, occurs well within 200 meters. While I tend to agree, I still think the rifleman needs something to reliably hit at ranges out to 500 meters at least. While the .308 wins hands-down in this situation, the M16A2, in trained and confident hands, perfoms this feat more readily than any AK-variant.
Our concern over the primary battle rifle of our forces is almost unique, and reflects our heritage and organization around our traditional arm, the Infantry. The Russians have traditionally revolved their tactics around artillery, and thus they and their Warsaw Pact minions had a weapon adequate for exploiting the effects of indirect fire, as well as simple enough to be assimilated by the lowest common "mental" denominator in their now defunct empire.
Many "experts" would suggest that modern combat, as far as the Infantry is concerned, occurs well within 200 meters. While I tend to agree, I still think the rifleman needs something to reliably hit at ranges out to 500 meters at least. While the .308 wins hands-down in this situation, the M16A2, in trained and confident hands, perfoms this feat more readily than any AK-variant.
Our concern over the primary battle rifle of our forces is almost unique, and reflects our heritage and organization around our traditional arm, the Infantry. The Russians have traditionally revolved their tactics around artillery, and thus they and their Warsaw Pact minions had a weapon adequate for exploiting the effects of indirect fire, as well as simple enough to be assimilated by the lowest common "mental" denominator in their now defunct empire.
Blue Duck357
New member
I really think we need to start looking at the big picture on this. We have superbly qualified people who have spent time in the armed forces with the AR saying "Mine worked fine" and others just as qualified who say "Mine didn't". It usually then degrades in the typical "Well, you didn't clean it right" or "My whole companies rifles never worked" arguments.
IMHO, when you have highly qualified people on both sides (which we do), the issue must be listed as "questionable". I don't want a "questionable" rifle to stake my life on.
Just my thoughts, Blue Duck
IMHO, when you have highly qualified people on both sides (which we do), the issue must be listed as "questionable". I don't want a "questionable" rifle to stake my life on.
Just my thoughts, Blue Duck
Blue, that would be a good point...except that frankly, I don't take anyone else's word at face value. I KNOW the circumstances under which I used my ARs and my issued M16s, and I know how they were maintained. I don't know the surrounding circumstances or even the veracity of anyone else's reported experience with ARs or M16s which are posted here.
Also, I know the experiences of my friends, fellow soldiers in training and the troops with whom I served and whom I commanded with their M16s. This experience leads me to believe that my experience is not singular or rare.
Also Blue, the AK and various other rifles held up as paragons of reliability have their reputation inflated due to unfamiliarity of most Americans with their use in field conditions. I know that I have seen a half dozen jams from various AKs in my experience with them so I frankly don't believe in the AK's vaunted flawless reliability.
The only military-style rifle I have owned/shot extensively that I believe to be superior in reliability to the AR/M16 is the HK91.
Also, I know the experiences of my friends, fellow soldiers in training and the troops with whom I served and whom I commanded with their M16s. This experience leads me to believe that my experience is not singular or rare.
Also Blue, the AK and various other rifles held up as paragons of reliability have their reputation inflated due to unfamiliarity of most Americans with their use in field conditions. I know that I have seen a half dozen jams from various AKs in my experience with them so I frankly don't believe in the AK's vaunted flawless reliability.
The only military-style rifle I have owned/shot extensively that I believe to be superior in reliability to the AR/M16 is the HK91.
Shin,
The only malfs I have ever had with a M16A2 where with blanks and BFAs. And although I am currently an officer, I was enlisted for a while I would bet my knowledge of weapons is on par with any of my enlisted Marines (but since I was the gun nut in my Battalion I would say in reality I knew more than most). I was always told by my Marines how great the AK was, but normally those guys had only heard that very few had fired them before. Those Marines that I took to the range with an AK generally agreed that they preferred the M16 afterward.
I would really like to know who your company commander was and when you where in? If everyone in a company is having similar problem, maybe we can learn what exactly they where doing wrong and exactly the circumstances that caused all the problems.
The only malfs I have ever had with a M16A2 where with blanks and BFAs. And although I am currently an officer, I was enlisted for a while I would bet my knowledge of weapons is on par with any of my enlisted Marines (but since I was the gun nut in my Battalion I would say in reality I knew more than most). I was always told by my Marines how great the AK was, but normally those guys had only heard that very few had fired them before. Those Marines that I took to the range with an AK generally agreed that they preferred the M16 afterward.
I would really like to know who your company commander was and when you where in? If everyone in a company is having similar problem, maybe we can learn what exactly they where doing wrong and exactly the circumstances that caused all the problems.
I didn't count jams that occured while screwing around with MILES.
As for what we were doing on the company level to somehow make an otherwise flawless weapon malfunction...come on. That's absurd.
Jams were common. Tap-rack-bang was a holy mantra.
Look kids. Nothing you guys say is going to make me believe that the repeated jams I had to deal with didn't happen.
And I'm not trying to tell you that you had jams that you choose not to remember.
As for what we were doing on the company level to somehow make an otherwise flawless weapon malfunction...come on. That's absurd.
Jams were common. Tap-rack-bang was a holy mantra.
Look kids. Nothing you guys say is going to make me believe that the repeated jams I had to deal with didn't happen.
And I'm not trying to tell you that you had jams that you choose not to remember.
Blue Duck357
New member
See what I mean, regardless of whether a person has had good or bad experiance with the AR the other side just attacks by saying they must not be as knowledgeable or experinced as themselves. Yes Rik I have personal experince with the weapon, less than yours most likely but still my first hand expereince, which leads to the inevitable thread:
It goes on and on something like this,
1. I was in the Army they were crap.
2. Well, I was in the infantry they worked great if you know how to clean them.
3. Well, I was an Airborn Ranger and know how to clean a rifle and mine didn't work.
4. Well, I'm an amororer and know that if well maintained they work.
5. Well, I was a Navy seal and our weapons were properly maintained and didn't work!
6. Well I'm God and they used the wrong powder!!
7. Well I'm Hardin and they work great with Zinc bullets!!!
Etc. Etc. Ect.
I'm not saying it's a fine weapon and I'm not saying it's junk, but till this mess is cleared up I'll choose something there are less questions surrounding.
Sorry Soda, I'm sure this thread has degerated into just what you asked it not too, But asking about the AR without getting into this is like asking about real estate in the middle east while wanting no mention of religion.
Best wishes, Blue Duck
It goes on and on something like this,
1. I was in the Army they were crap.
2. Well, I was in the infantry they worked great if you know how to clean them.
3. Well, I was an Airborn Ranger and know how to clean a rifle and mine didn't work.
4. Well, I'm an amororer and know that if well maintained they work.
5. Well, I was a Navy seal and our weapons were properly maintained and didn't work!
6. Well I'm God and they used the wrong powder!!
7. Well I'm Hardin and they work great with Zinc bullets!!!
Etc. Etc. Ect.
I'm not saying it's a fine weapon and I'm not saying it's junk, but till this mess is cleared up I'll choose something there are less questions surrounding.
Sorry Soda, I'm sure this thread has degerated into just what you asked it not too, But asking about the AR without getting into this is like asking about real estate in the middle east while wanting no mention of religion.
Best wishes, Blue Duck
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