The hammer has fallen...

[Playboypenguin]

No, they have never ever been confirmed by the issuing authority in Hawaii.

And just how would that happen? They would use the same criteria any official would use to validate the certificate. They are not in the business of validating certificates...they simply issue them. It either exists on file or it does not. That is as far as their validation would go.

 

[madmag]

That is as far as their validation would go.

No. Their has been no validation that the certificate he holds was issued as is from records in Hawaii. So far, they (Hawaii) have said this is restricted info. They have only said that documents like his are a reflection of full birth certificates on file. No one has verified that yet...just assumptions that this is the case. The main reason for the law suit is to open the records in Hawaii for verification. Gee, this is hard stuff!

And just how would that happen?

By way of court order or Obama allowing the records to be opened.

 

[Playboypenguin]

Where are you seeing that Hawaii is saying that they cannot confirm his birth certificate? They said what he has is what they do indeed issue? How can they verify it any further than that? Once again, they do not validate birth certificates, they simply issue them.

 

[madmag]

Where are you seeing that Hawaii is saying that they cannot confirm his birth certificate?

They have said that from day one. Hawaii is a restricted state for that information to general public. When I have time I will dig up.

Again, the officials in Hawaii have only said that the seal looks correct as seen on the net, but they will not confirm any data listed. Not legal for them to do so.

 

[Playboypenguin]

They are not saying they cannot confirm the validity of his birth certificate. They are saying they can only issue it under certain conditions and they confirmed that what he has shown is indeed the certificate they do issue. How is that refusing to confirm?

 

[MedicineBow]

Who does Obama think he is that he does not have to accept legal summons

No one has to accept a summons.

 

[madmag]

certificate they do issue. How is that refusing to confirm?

Key words, certificate they do issue, not that they did issue. They affirm it looks like their documents and appears to have the correct seal, but they cannot say it matches their data.

I think it is straight forward...maybe you just don't want to understand?

Anyway, I give. Someone else can try.

 

[Playboypenguin]

Key words, certificate they do issue, not that they did issue. They affirm it looks like their documents and appears to have the correct seal, but they cannot say it matches their data.

The seal being present and legitimate is all the confirmation you are going to get from any state. That is probably how a judge is going to decide also. he will simply check the seal and signature.

 

[dipper]

he will simply check the seal and signature

Well, HE might, but I am sure experts ( on both sides?) will give testimony as to whether they feel it is legit or not.

Dipper

 

[madmag]

Well, HE might, but I am sure experts ( on both sides?) will give testimony as to whether they feel it is legit or not.

Well somebody got it anyway.

 

[Playboypenguin]

Well, HE might, but I am sure experts ( on both sides?) will give testimony as to whether they feel it is legit or not.

Well somebody got it anyway.

And just who do you think these "experts" will be and how will they judge the document?

It will not be the state of Hawaii and it will most likely be simple lawyers. I have seen quite a few certificates presented in court when I was a case manager for CPS. The validation is pretty much no more in depth than running a finger over a raised seal and making sure the signature on the document is correct.

Sounds to me like some people are setting up the foundation for the argument that the document was not "properly vetted" after the case is dismissed. Even when such vetting processes do not exist.

 

[MedicineBow]

Here's how this will work.

Someday -- if anyone ever bothers to serve Obama -- somebody will just get a certified copy of the Hawaii birth certificate.

Case closed.

 

[madmag]

somebody will just get a certified copy of the Hawaii birth certificate.

I think that is about right. Certified by the issuing authority in Hawaii being the key issue. But why have to go to court to get these documents? Oh well, that should end this drama anyway. If I was not a stickler for details I really would not care.

 

[madmag]

And just who do you think these "experts" will be and how will they judge the document?

This is a multiple choice question:
(Experts to judge the document)

A) Sara Palin

B) Kieth Olberman

C) Verification from an Alaska state official.

D) Verification from a Hawaii official or certification of said document.

E) all of the above

 

[dipper]

And just who do you think these "experts" will be and how will they judge the document?

See Playboy this is more or less the way it is done in a court of law.
Both sides will submit people who are experts in document verification or whatever title these people have or go by.
They will state many things like where they work, degrees, experience, special training etc. that they have.
It won't matter where they come from--they could come from Mars for all it matters.
The judge will listen to the testimony of the person and then declare them an expert witness or not---that's it.
I can't possibly give you names because I don't know who will be picked.
The judge will determine who is expert and who is not.
They will testify how THEY judge the document and the powers that be will decide whether to believe them or not.
That's more or less it.
No Fuss, No Muss and it is done thousands of times a day.
It should work the same for BO as it does for YOU.

Dipper

 

[Playboypenguin]

Both sides will submit people who are experts in document verification or whatever title these people have or go by.

This is not a handwriting verification or a case of an antique document. There is no such thing as an expert in verification of birth certificates. All that will be verified is that it has the proper seal and signature.

 

[dipper]

No Dude, your just wrong, any document can be verified--any document--color, texture, watermarks, size, shape, age, and yes stamps and seals and signatures etc.
Many, many documents have been faked throughout history and there are people who find this out.

There is no such thing as an expert in verification of birth certificates

How do you know that?? Are there any other documents that there are no experts for? Or just birth certificates.
Are you saying that there are specific experts for each document generated in the world??
don't think so.

Dipper

 

[JuanCarlos]

Except that in this case there's no need for "experts" to "validate" the document. The issuing agency is still around, and could thus be contacted directly to attest to the veracity of the document.

 

[dipper]

Unless the attorney makes a legal argument to the judge and HE accepts that argument and permits it to be verified by experts.
THAT'S what matters----legal arguments and decisions from the bench.


Dipper

 

[Playboypenguin]

What experts???? You guys are so far off base with this. I have seen dozens of birth certificates entered as evidence. They are not on special paper, they do not use special ink. The only verifiable aspect to them are there format, raised seal, and the stamp/signature. There is no such thing as an expert on verifying birth certificates. This is not an ancient document. if the issuing agency says it matches what they issue and the document has the required earmarks it is legitimate.

Search the net and see how many experts you find that specialize in verifying birth certificates.