The 45 colt: Old but still useful?

[Dave T]

28 or 29 years ago, after considerable research I carefully duplicated the original loading for the 45 Colt. I had NOS balloon head cases, 255g RNFP bullets cast from 1-20 tin to lead alloy, and FFg black powder.

A 40g charge of BP gave me 914 fps from my 7.5" SAA. The same load made 885 fps in my 5.5" SAA. And finally it produced 864 fps in my 4.75" SAA. And yes I still have the chronograph results.

Where ever the idea came from that the original load produced 700 fps it is so far off the mark it's ridiculous.

And, unless you are hunting very large animals, a 255g projectile at a little over 900 fps will solve most tasks you might take on with a handgun.

Just sayin',
Dave

 

[44caliberkid]

Frontier US Marshall Bud Ledbetter and a group of lawmen surrounded a house in Muskogee, OK to arrest the occupants. Four men on the front porch started firing Winchesters at Ledbetter, who took center position in the street, right in front of the house. Bud was using a 32 Winchester (cartridge not specified) he called, "...a little government rifle...", and hit one of the men center mass twice. The man bent over but continued firing. With bullets tearing at his clothes, Bud drew his 45 Colt and dispatched the shooter with a single shot. He shot another in the head, killing him instantly. His third shot hit a man in a window through the bowels, which put him out of the fight and he died of his wound. The rest of the occupants of the house surrendered in short order.
He later told the local paper, "Never go after a shooting man with one of those new fangled 32's." "Always take a 45. That knocks 'em down and they don't get up and bother you no more."

 

[rclark]

Where ever the idea came from that the original load produced 700 fps it is so far off the mark it's ridiculous.

Yep... Maybe that with the Schofield cartridge? Anyway, I agree a 250+g bullet moving 900fps will solve most of your tasks. My 'target' load is around ~850fps, while my woods load is ~1100fps. And both loads work find in my medium and large frame Rugers.

 

[TxFlyFish]

I really wish it were affordable at least same price as 44mag. Everything local it’s ridiculous prices

 

[Dave T]

I really wish it were affordable at least same price as 44mag. Everything local it’s ridiculous prices

Reloading equipment is the only solution. I reload both smokeless 45 Colt rounds and black powder ammo. The biggest expense over something like 38 Specials is those 250/255g bullets cost more. Back in my youth I cast my own 45 Colt projectiles but as an old geezer it's easier to just buy them. (smile)

Dave

 

[Pathfinder45]

It's among the easiest calibers to reload, which is the only way I can afford to shoot it much.

 

[Mr.RevolverGuy]

cmon where are the 45 Pictures. The few posted are really nice.

Has anyone used these in 45colt http://www.gtbullets.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=1&products_id=26

 

[10-96]

I always wondered about the .45Long Colt and .44SPL. Back in the 70's, Amarillo Police got into a running gunfight with a kid in a stolen pickup truck. All the Officers were bouncing .38's off of the truck with no penetration (into the bg anyways). Afterwards, the knee jerk reaction was for the Chief to declare "If you want to work here, you'll carry and shoot the .41 Magnum." To say the least, there was no further complaints about projectiles failing to penetrate 1970's vehicle sheet metal. But, I always wondered why the .45 Long Colt, .44SPL, or some other round wasn't selected. I know the .41 is mucho caballo, but I just can't help but wonder. It would have been cool to have been a fly on the wall and present for the discussions.

 

[silvermane_1]

I always wondered about the .45Long Colt and .44SPL. Back in the 70's, Amarillo Police got into a running gunfight with a kid in a stolen pickup truck. All the Officers were bouncing .38's off of the truck with no penetration (into the bg anyways). Afterwards, the knee jerk reaction was for the Chief to declare "If you want to work here, you'll carry and shoot the .41 Magnum." To say the least, there was no further complaints about projectiles failing to penetrate 1970's vehicle sheet metal. But, I always wondered why the .45 Long Colt, .44SPL, or some other round wasn't selected. I know the .41 is mucho caballo, but I just can't help but wonder. It would have been cool to have been a fly on the wall and present for the discussions.

Well it's probably because the police department didn't think that anything less than a .41 Mag would penetrate vehicle's body.

 

[44 AMP]

1970s factory loads for .44 Spl and .45 Colt don't have a good record for penetrating angled metal. Nor does the .45acp.

In most cases, it is the angle of the impact that matters most. Rounds that punch through at steep angle often glance off at shallow angles. Mass matters, some, speed matters more, but angle of impact matters most.

But since angle of impact is out of manufacturer's control, all that can be used is mass and speed. One of the big selling points of the .357 Magnum for police use was its increased ability to penetrate car bodies over other rounds available at the time.

The downside? more blast and recoil. There's no free lunch.

The .41Mag?? same as the .357 but more...of everything,

 

[TruthTellers]

The .41Mag?? same as the .357 but more...of everything,

Except common use, guns, ammo availability, and price.

 

[BBarn]

I have only one 45 Colt. I enjoy shooting it, but it does have what I consider to be a number of drawbacks when loaded to SAA pressure levels.

1) Modern brass is strong and the cases fail to expand and fill the cylinder, leading to a lot of soot on fired cases.

2) Jacketed bullets aren't well suited to standard pressure loads. Maximum loads aren't far above the levels needed to push the bullet fully out of the barrel. Cast and swaged lead bullets work better at the standard power/pressure levels.

3) Downloading, even with lead bullets, amplifies the above issues.

4) Many modern smokeless powders (except for Trail Boss) result in poor case fill. Some of the "magnum" powders (like 2400 and IMR4227) provide decent case fill, but generally result in considerable residue and poor combustion. Even bulky "classic" powders like Herco reach only about 50% case fill at standard 45 Colt pressure levels.

The 45 Colt improves with modern brass and powders when combined with the higher pressure levels available to those who shoot Rugers, TCs, and a few other revolvers.

In my limited experience with most modern components, the 45 Colt is just getting started when used with lead bullets at top SAA load levels. And for those with stronger guns, very nice loads can be developed for both stout lead and jacketed bullets at higher pressure levels.

Bottom line (for me) is it's a fun round when used at medium power levels (and above), but I think there are much better caliber choices for powder puff and "cowboy" loads.

 

[TruthTellers]

I have only one 45 Colt. I enjoy shooting it, but it does have what I consider to be a number of drawbacks when loaded to SAA pressure levels.

1) Modern brass is strong and the cases fail to expand and fill the cylinder, leading to a lot of soot on fired cases.

2) Jacketed bullets aren't well suited to standard pressure loads. Maximum loads aren't far above the levels needed to push the bullet fully out of the barrel. Cast and swaged lead bullets work better at the standard power/pressure levels.

3) Downloading, even with lead bullets, amplifies the above issues.

4) Many modern smokeless powders (except for Trail Boss) result in poor case fill. Some of the "magnum" powders (like 2400 and IMR4227) provide decent case fill, but generally result in considerable residue and poor combustion. Even bulky "classic" powders like Herco reach only about 50% case fill at standard 45 Colt pressure levels.

The 45 Colt improves with modern brass and powders when combined with the higher pressure levels available to those who shoot Rugers, TCs, and a few other revolvers.

In my limited experience with most modern components, the 45 Colt is just getting started when used with lead bullets at top SAA load levels. And for those with stronger guns, very nice loads can be developed for both stout lead and jacketed bullets at higher pressure levels.

Bottom line (for me) is it's a fun round when used at medium power levels (and above), but I think there are much better caliber choices for powder puff and "cowboy" loads.

For all the reasons you listed above, I think that's the reason why a lot of people complain about .45 Colt accuracy not being as good as .44 Special's accuracy. The .45 Colt case is MASSIVE and trying to go for a lower recoil accuracy load results in poor results.

For those reasons, I find that .45 Schofield/S&W is the answer. The case is smaller so there's less air gap, I want to believe the brass is a bit thinner and thus requires lower pressures to expand and fit to the chamber for full obturation, but in a .45 Colt revolver the .45 S&W is still capable of shooting the 250 grain bullets.

The comparison between .44 Special and .45 Colt is not accurate because the Colt case is a full 1/8th inch longer than .44 Spl, while the .45 S&W case is 1/16th inch shorter than .44 Spl. Of course there's still the crowd that believes in the bullet jump myth and will lose their minds over the thought of shooting a case that's 3/16ths of an inch shorter, so they'll swear by the .44 forever.

So my suggestion for you is try some .45 Schofield at the SAA pressures and you will likely see a huge difference.

 

[BBarn]

I have considered, and am still considering, using the smaller 45 S&W cases for some of my loads.

Dimensional issues have also handicapped the 45 Colt. The case diameter is smaller relative to the cylinder/chamber diameter than most other cartridges making for a somewhat sloppy fit. That also means more than the typical expansion is required from the case to seal against the chamber/cylinder.

 

[Pathfinder45]

So use an appropriate powder. Unique is among the best.

 

[buck460XVR]

Take it from me, age has nothing to do with usefulness.

Very true.

The .45 Colt is not the only example of longevity when it comes to firearms and their food. Lots of ammo, gauges and the platforms to shoot them both that have been around for as long or almost as long. Many >century old examples still doing their job as well, if not better than many of their modern day brethren.

More like the ability to shoot common .45 Colt are keeping the .454 and .460 alive.

Spoken most likely by someone who does not shoot .454 and .460. While both of those platforms can shoot .45 Colt, those folks that actually shoot them generally don't bother. It's what the .454 and .460 can do above and beyond it's little sister is what's going to keep them alive. Kinda like sayin' the only thing that brought back the .45 Colt from obscurity was the advent of "Ruger Only" loads. While a few do it, it's not what the majority of folks do.

I'd be the first to tell folks iffin you are thinkin' about gettin' an X-Frame or a BFR in .454 just to shoot standard .45 Colt loads in....don't bother. Just a waste of time, money and a good gun.

 

[TruthTellers]

I have considered, and am still considering, using the smaller 45 S&W cases for some of my loads.

Dimensional issues have also handicapped the 45 Colt. The case diameter is smaller relative to the cylinder/chamber diameter than most other cartridges making for a somewhat sloppy fit. That also means more than the typical expansion is required from the case to seal against the chamber/cylinder.

The .45 Colt is really a magnum sized cartridge and was considered as such in the 1800s when using a full black powder charge. Part of the reason why the Army made .45 S&W the standard ammo wasn't simply because of ammo commonality between the SAA and Model 3 Schofield revolvers, it was because the .45 Colt at the time had uncomfortable recoil.

Why .45 S&W ammo isn't as common as .45 Colt is odd. I know the larger rim can have issues in certain revolvers and it can't run in lever rifles due to the case length, but I guess it has more to do with people not knowing that .45 S&W/Schofield ammo can be shot in .45 Colt revolvers.

Which I find hard to believe as most people who own .45 Colt revolvers are more "in the know" about such things than the typical Joe Six Pack.

So use an appropriate powder. Unique is among the best.

Yeah, Unique is my primary powder for .45 Colt and most other revolver cartridges. It just works so well in the long cases.

 

[USSR]

cmon where are the 45 Pictures. The few posted are really nice.

Happy to oblige.

Don

 

[Driftwood Johnson]

cmon where are the 45 Pictures. The few posted are really nice.

I'm your Huckleberry

The problem with this forum is you can only post six photos per post. So here are six that you all might find interesting.

My 45 Colt/45 ACP Blackhawk that I bought brand-spanky new in 1975. It only cost $150 back then, which was still a lot of money for a kid in his twenties.

The next 45 I bought, around 2000 when I first got into Cowboy Action Shooting. An 'original model' Vaquero that I bought used at that time.

A pair of Stainless 'original model' Vaqueros that were my main match pistols for a few years.

A pair of 2nd Gen Colts that are my current Main Match CAS pistols.

Another 2nd Gen that I picked up recently. This one is so pretty that I have not gotten around to shooting it yet.

Regarding my load, it is difficult to stuff the original 40 grains of FFg Black Powder into a modern solid head 45 Colt cartridge, without compressing the powder a ridiculous amount. My normal load in modern brass is 2.2CC of Schuetzen FFg which works out to about 33.3 grains, under a 250 grain Big Lube bullet. I chronographed these a long time ago. My loading notebook says this load averaged 800 fps out of a 7 1/2" Vaquero. That's how long ago I chorinied them, I did not own my Colts yet. Anyway, that is plenty of velocity for me.

Here is what it looks like fired from my 4 3/4" barreled Colt.

 

[Driftwood Johnson]

Howdy Again

Here is something you don't see every day. Colt New Service chambered for 45 Colt. Shipped in 1906.

Did somebody say Schofields?

This 1st Model Schofield left the S&W factory in July of 1875.

Clearly, I cannot fire 45 Colts out of it, the cylinder is not long enough for the 45 Colt round. I have to fire the shorter 45 Schofield round out of it.

Here is an interesting photo. Left to right one of my 45 Colt reloads, an original copper cased, Benet Primed folded rim 45 Colt round, an original copper cased, Benet primed folded rim 45 Schofield round, and one of my 45 Schofield reloads in Starline brass with 1.9CC (about 28.5 grains) of Schuetzen FFg under a 200 grain Big Lube bullet.

While we are non the subject of Schofields, we might as well mention my old EuroArms 1858 Remington that I also bought back around 1975. Sorry, no idea how much it cost back then. Anyway, about ten years ago I bought an R&D conversion cylinder for it chambered for 45 Colt.

The Remington grip shape is just different enough from a Colt that I did not like shooting full house 45 Colt rounds out of it. I brought the cylinder to a friend and he opened up the counterbores for the rims ever so slightly, so the larger Schofield rims would seat. That is when I started loading 45 Schofield with Black Powder, and when I designed the J/P 45-200 Big Lube bullet. Up until that time the only Big Lube bullet available for 45 caliber was the 250 grain PRS bullet. So I designed the 200 grain bullet specifically for shooting in my Remmie. It is now part of the standard line up of Big Lube bullets, but the design was tweaked a little bit from my original design.

Ooops, that's it, six photos.