Should I allow Concealed Weapons Holders to Carry in my store??

[MTT TL]

I think you got the best answer on the first post. The rest of it is mostly just internet posturing with a couple of sound pieces of advice. I know you don't want to end up in court because some idiot cooks one off in your sales guy chest with his "unloaded" gun. In truth no sign will stop that from happening anyway. But a good policy might help limit your liability without driving your customer base away. It is a careful balance.



Gun shops and gun shows seem to get bit with the ND (I don't much believe in accidents, but I do believe in negligence) bug more than say Food Lion or Wal mart. But it is still a rare event, so you will have to work that one out.

 

[Kframe]

SSI/Mike, thanks for considering the input from the other thread.
The more I think about your position, I can understand your hesitation.
In gun stores, some CCW holders think it is okay to play show-and-tell with their carry gun - and that is where the danger lies. I've been in a gunshop where a CCW holder pulled out his pistol and handed it to another shopper so he could feel the grip, this was done loaded and the gun's owner merely said "careful, it's loaded". This probably wouldn't happen at the grocery store (although you never know, right?).

The other problem is that idiots that do this usually don't see/read signs so one stating CCW is allowed but must stay holstered, would likely be unnoticed/ignored.

As for myself, I know that I would never play show-and-tell with my carry gun in any store at any time. But, as the shopowner you don't know that about me.
I'm just another unknown quantity to you.

So, it's a tough question. I voted 'yes' in your poll, but I can really understand why you have concerns.
Anyway, good discussion.
-K

 

[jules]

"all loaded weapons must remain holstered at all times, all guns to receive gunsmithing must be cased and unloaded"
"failure to adhere to these rules may result in deadly force"

 

[Orangeshadow03]

"If carrying a weapon under CWP, the weapon MUST remain in holster and out of sight."

"If you need work on a CWP handgun, You MUST bring the weapon in unloaded and the holster separately"


All other weapons are to be cased and unloaded.

Thank You.

+1

 

[motorhead0922]

You want the sign to be simple and to the point. So, I like what huntinaz posted:

Concealed carry weapons must remain concealed at all times

All other firearms must be unloaded and cased BEFORE entering the store

If open carry becomes law, add "Open carry weapons must remain holstered at all times" as line 2.

Keep it simple, say what you mean, and mean what you say. No exceptions, no matter how many times the customer has been there.

 

[GoOfY-FoOt]

you don't want to end up in court because some idiot cooks one off in your sales guy chest with his "unloaded" gun

Myself, being said salesguy, thinks legal trouble is the least of the concern, here...

The purpose of this discussion, is how to avoid the bullet in my chest, whilst not alienating customers...Please think, BEFORE you type.

(I don't much believe in accidents, but I do believe in negligence)

So what you're stating, is that if every precaution is already taken, then no random bad thing will ever happen, ever again???
Brilliant...Why didn't we think of that?

 

[Double Naught Spy]

DoubleNaughtSpy... Thanks for your comments on my post.

I'm not talking about any business. I'm talking about a GUN SHOP! Employee's tend to be armed. They also tend to have some sort of a disaster plan for such an event.

Right, not talking about all businesses, but your concern is a great argument for all businesses. Obviously if you can't trust the CWP customers in a gun shop to be good shots and have controlled fire during a robbery, then there is no way in hell a manager or business owner is going to want to trust patrons in their cafe, autoparts store, convenience store, etc., right? See, it fits very well. If gun store people don't even trust the very sort of people that they are training to get licenses, then why should anyone else trust people with licenses either? That is a scary argument against patron carry.

Sorry, but I don't know of the data that indicates that gun shops tend to have disaster plans any more so than other businesses. How do you know when you enter a gun shop that disarms you that they have a disaster plan in effect and are going to protect you first? If they aren't protecting you first, then are they really protecting you or are you just benefitting from them trying to protect themselves?

Trust in my opinion is something that's built up over time and interaction. Not bestowed upon someone because they happened into your business.

Yet as a patron going unarmed into a gun shop, you have bestowed trust immediately simply because they are a gun shop, but you said that trust is something built up over time and that you are comfortable with and trust GUN STORE staff to protect you. Odd logic. Have you ever seen a gun store employee manual that stipulates protecting of the customers? How many shops do you think have them?

 

[MLeake]

DNS, your post #47 pretty much sums up my feelings on the matter.

SSAI, I think you are noticing a consistent pattern in general opinions between this thread and your original, though the tone of this one is more constructive.

Glenn Dee, you make some assumptions about gun shops that I don't share, based on experience with quite a few gun shops (shooting related expenditures are probably my #3 or 4 annual costs, after mortgage and horse upkeep; not sure if they are more or less than truck/gas/insurance).

Note to SSAI: I'm probably not the type of customer you'd want to alienate.

I've been to some shops where all the staff were sensible and skilled. Some of those people were great shots. In some cases, prior (or current) LEO. In one case, everybody behind the counter was either ex 82nd or ex SFG.

However, I've been to quite a few where one or more staffers were not so sharp, or had much higher opinions of their abilities than their co-workers held of them. (It's bad when their co-workers warn regulars not to listen to them...) I've been to a shop or two where the staff were sloppy in their gun-handling; I have not returned to those shops.

On one occasion, at a shop/range I used to frequent in Florida, the owner was on his day off. (This was the shop where I took my CCW refresher course.) The guy who was behind the counter looked at me when I came in, and motioned me to the counter. He was worried about the way some other customers were dressed and acting, and thought a robbery might be about to go down. He told me he was relieved to see me walk in, and happy that he knew I would be carrying. Turned out to be a false alarm, they were just hip-hop kids from UF who didn't realize the signals their postures might send, but the point is that shop staffer did NOT have a disaster plan, and was quite happy to have an armed, known customer handy.

 

[ClemBert]

Wow, I'm kind of surprised no one has come across a gun shop owner or former FFL dealer than mentions "the time one of my customers tried to kill me". Kind of tongue in cheek but they are referring to the time(s) that a clueless customer walked in with a loaded weapon and pulled it out to fidget with it not realizing the firearm was loaded. All the stories I heard ended up with everyone checking their shorts but no actual injuries except to the walls.

There is NO good reason for a CWP individual having show and tell with other customers. AFAIK, in Florida, that is a violation of Florida statutes and is a big NO-NO. If they plan to show it to the store owner or use it at the firing range it should be unloaded and cased before entering the store.

 

[mavracer]

Sure you should allow CCW the verrbage in the first responce is pretty good. If open carry is to be allowed a "no handeling of loaded firearms allowed" should help.

 

[Aguila Blanca]

As for myself, I know that I would never play show-and-tell with my carry gun in any store at any time. But, as the shopowner you don't know that about me.

On rare occasion, if a customer in the shop at my range is asking about the brand or model that I'm carrying and the shop doesn't have one in the case (which is the usual situation), I have -- with the owner's blessing -- taken out my carry piece to let the prospective buyer look at it. But ... rules iz rules. Before handing it over, I remove the magazine, clear the chamber, and lock the slide open. Perhaps I'm blessed that the shop attracts a better-trained clientele than some others, but I have never seen anyone waving a loaded carry piece around in the shop. Never. And I've been dealing with the same shop for about twenty years.

 

[Jeremiah/Az]

I understand your dilemma. There are a lot of idiots out there & some like guns too. I however, will not patronize any store that does not allow carry. Many others feel the same way. One of our gunstores here lost a lot of business because of a no carry sign that was for the most part misunderstood, according to management.. They were trashed all over the internet. When I spoke to them about it, no carry was not their intent. I did not see the sign, so I don't know what it said. Be careful how it is worded.

 

[StrongSideArmsInc]

Well, it looks to appear to be one sided on the issue. I have read all the post and I have to say, alot of good information.

I have forwarded all the "yes" votes and your names to my attorney, he will be putting all of you in a vicarious liability clause. Basically, if someone gets hurt in the store, yawl will be plantiffs in the lawsuit with me.
Just kidding!

For those of you that asked.

My shop is located in rural central Florida, within the city limits of Bushnell.
I am former LEO of 8 years, and spent 8 years in the U.S. Army.
My MOS(s) in the Army were Military Police and Psychological Operations.
I am Florida Swat Association, CJSTC, and NRA Firearms Instructor.
Florida Swat Association Sniper, Basic Entry, and Man Tracking Certifications.
I am also a Florida State "K" firearms instuctor.
1911, Hi-Power, AR15, and tactical shotgun builder.
I am a gunsmith and I do firearms restoration.

I am no stranger to high liability and I am not above being proved wrong. I was persuaded to start this thread because of answers and anger that I recieved from another thread. I felt I should at least entertain the notion, I am have been somewhat convinced to change my signage.
Safety is paramount, not just from a lliability standpoint, but the fact that if someone gets hurt in a GUN SHOP, it really does effect all PRO GUN people. Second, I have seen inocent people shot, plain and simple it, sucks.
Robberys can happen, I am aware of that, I have taken precautionary steps for that. As mentioned in this thread, I have just as big of a issue worring about the CWP holder in a gun fight as I do the bad guy. Two or more people shooting inside of an inclosed area, is dangerous, espeically if one has never been exposed to that type of training. So in other words, there are tactical considerations to think about, should I allow people to carry loaded weapons in my shop.
Lastly, it is one of a business issue. I would like to see all people shop at my store. If this sets me apart from other Gun Shops in my area, then so be it, it gives me an edge on the others.

Thanks for all the great replys and dialog. After speaking with my attorney friend, one thing of note. If I do change my sign to allow CWP holders to carry in the store, and I put a clause in that reads, "it must be kept holstered.", my attorney stated a violation of that clause can become a criminal issue per Florida Statute 790.10. This statute is officially titled as "improper exhibition of dangerous weapons or firearms", and the statute states that "if any person having or carrying any . . . weapon shall, in the presence of one or more (other) persons, exhibit the same in a rude, careless, angry or threatening manner, not in necessary self defense, the person so offending shall be guilty of a misdemeanor of the first degree.

My attorney stated if someone is hurt inside the store that a criminal proceeding can and will reduce the liability on my part.

Much to think about.

 

[Gary L. Griffiths]

To add my vote to allowing concealed carry with limits, I saw a sign in a gun store some time ago. It read:

Concealed firearms must remain holstered unless on the firing
range or shooting bandits in the lobby.

Accuracy in the lobby will be greatly appreciated!​

 

[jgcoastie]

Why not just remove the "No firearms allowed" sign and be neutral on the matter?

 

[Double Naught Spy]

Why not just remove the "No firearms allowed" sign and be neutral on the matter?

That seems like a logical thing to do, but by not disallowing CWP carry in the store may legally mean that they are allowing it (lawyer insight needed) and hence have liability issues. Plus, mgmt/staff perceives an actual danger from CWP people because of the stupid actions of the past inside the store. Being neutral means nothing to the person who has been shot and the store wants to keep people safe.

 

[motorhead0922]

Why not just remove the "No firearms allowed" sign and be neutral on the matter?

That's what he did before, and some people displayed their weapons in an unsafe manner, even causing 2 ADs.

 

[leadchucker]

I'm guessing that you want any sign to be as brief and easy to read as possible, and yet be clear and emphatic. Liberal use of bold uppercase, and red letters on a sign as large as possible, posted as prominently as possible will help too.

NOTICE!
ALL LOADED CARRY WEAPONS MUST REMAIN HOLSTERED AT ALL TIMES
ALL OTHER FIREARMS MUST BE UNLOADED AND CASED BEFORE ENTERING THE STORE
IF YOU FAIL TO COMPLY WITH THIS, YOU WILL BE ASKED TO LEAVE.​

 

[Tom Servo]

I've forcibly taken a gun from a guy who drew and swept my entire sales staff with it twice. He claimed that having a carry permit made him an expert, and he didn't understand that he was placing us in danger. Far from acknowledging his mistake, he went on a self-righteous tirade about how I was infringing on his rights.

I've seen two negligent discharges from supposedly "qualified" people in the shop, both of which placed others in serious danger. In another case, a person argued with me because I wouldn't let him load his gun at the counter. I was evidently right in my decision, as he went out to his car and had a negligent discharge in the trunk.

Each of these times (and probably a dozen others), I thought of banning carry. It's tempting. It really is.

Thing is, it would create some ill will. It would have slight shades of hypocrisy, and worst of all, it wouldn't stop these people. These are the folks who clog up traffic and cause accidents because they don't notice the flashing lights and signs that say "Lane Ends in 1000 Feet: Merge Right."

So, what to do? I handle it on a case-by-case basis, and I hope I catch the problem in time. Most of the folks posting here are responsible gun owners, and they're not the ones who worry me. There are plenty of folks out there who aren't, however, and it just takes one of them to destroy a life and/or a business in a split second lapse of ignorance or tomfoolery.

Bear in mind that there are some businesses that are posted because they don't have a choice in the matter. It's very hard to get a gun shop insured, and some policies have some pretty strict provisions. If I see a shop posted, I don't automatically scream, "OMG traitor to the 2nd Ammenment!" He may not have had a say in the matter, and it would be unfair of me to judge him as such.

 

[Usertag]

Yes you should. and tell them they can pull it out either slowly on the counter if they have an issue or just make a rule where there can't be one in the chamber.