Seized by the Manchester, New Hampshire PD for Open Carry

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mvpel

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News coming fast and furious lately - the Manchester PD has completed their investigation and come to the conclusion that my complaint was "unfounded."

The 911 tape - from Manchester only, not the cellular 911 dispatch center - has been provided to my attorney, and we are reviewing it for possible public release.

It appears that at this point that the position of the AG's office and the Manchester Police is that intentional or unintentional exposure of a firearm which "causes concern" is sufficient cause for a crowd of police officers to roust you, regardless of the legality of doing so.

It also appears that there may be a statewide database of permitholders. Developing...

I expect to have more information sometime after this coming Monday.

Once again, donations to the legal fund may be sent to Penny S. Dean, 59 Warren St., Concord, NH 03301-3951, for account PELLET-001.
 

Theophorus

New member
Pertinent reading.

I was reading tonight, and came across this. Interesting in light of what seems to be occuring in not only Manchester, but all over.

"The existence of a citizen militia responsible in some way for the security of a given community also might reintroduce responsibility into the administration of law enforcement. Although law enforcement officials formerly were liable...in trespass for improperly serving a search warrant or for breaking into the wrong hourse to make an arrest [certain legal concepts] now present almost insuperable barriers for citizens wishing to hold law enforcement officers accountable for mistakes or abuses. Further, the recent phenomenon of the "militarization" of law enforcement at all levels of government evokes sinister analogies to authoritarian regimes...Professional law enforcement officers clad in Nomex coveralls and face shields, after all, hardly seem to represent the community even in their own minds, much less in the minds of the many onlookers. Encouraging communities to take responsibility for their security might also have the effect of making those charged with law enforcement duties morally respnsible to their friends and neighbors, and thus help them exercise greater care and restraint in carrying out their law enforcement duties. Though many might raise the specter of vigilantism and argue for respecting the domain of law enforcement professionals, the recent behavior of some law enforcement agencies implies that a "professional" record is not always something to which communities should aspire. Likewise, charging members of a community with its security will sensitize them to the link between rights and responsibilities. Moreover, requiring that community members police the "rights-responsibilities" boundary will highlight the social cost that accompanies the exercise of rights in diverse and plural community."

Brannon P. Denning and Glenn Harland Reynolds, It Takes a Militia: A Communitarian Case For Compulsory Arms Bearing , William and Mary Bill of Rights Journal 185, 186. (1996)

This comes from a Washington University professor wishing to form an "ideology for the 1990's." He saw the RTKBA as something for a community to perform moreso than an individual right. While he may be a bit "communitarian" he does make some keen observations about the growing chasm between the police and our communities--the recent passage of a national right to carry law for LEO's being a prime example. I must agree that the Nomex masks are a bit perplexing as well.

Anyway, thought I'd share.

Theo :)
 

Edward429451

Moderator
the Manchester PD has completed their investigation and come to the conclusion that my complaint was "unfounded."

It also appears that there may be a statewide database of permitholders. Developing...


SO what good is it to jump through the hoops to be psuedo legal with permits and such? They can do no wrong, we can do no right, we have no redress of grievances, merely serfs waiting confiscation. I wonder what comes after confiscation...?

Tell me again how we're supposed to respect this administration?
 

Edward429451

Moderator
The administration is my new PC word for LEO's everywhere. When I say LEO's, I get accused of being a cop basher. It's not the poor cops fault, it's the administration he works for and runs things.

State, local, federal...it's all the same to us serfs. :(
 

mvpel

New member
My wife and I are planning a trip to Concord on Wednesday morning to listen to the tape and help Penny set up her audio digitizing software. I should be able to get a copy of the tape online in the next several days.

Apparently the caller hung up before giving their name, which is an interesting parallel to the Florida v. J.L. case. I'll know more once I hear the tape.
 

mvpel

New member
Okay, we heard the tape. Some interesting details:

The caller made her call after having left the store.

She said that she had expressed her concern to the manager, who she said had walked past me, but she didn't think he'd called the police. Gee, lady, maybe that's because he has better judgement than you do!

She identified my wife, but the responding officers didn't seem to have the foggiest idea that she was there. If they thought I was a robber, despite all the facts screaming the contrary, don't you think they would have been quite interested in apprehending my wife as well? She had gone to the bathroom while I wandered over to the SciFi section where I was ambushed.

Based on the caller's description, I have a clear sense of exactly when she saw me - I was leaning over my wife's chair looking at sweater patterns.

She said that the section of the store was near the "Baby & Maternity" area near the restrooms, but that apparently got mangled into "Children's Section" by the dispatcher, which is entirely different - that section of the store has one entrance cordoned off by bookshelves, much like the CD/DVD section.

The caller refused to give her name, drawing a useful parallel to Florida v. J.L., in which the Supreme Court held:

An anonymous tip that a person is carrying a gun is not, without more, sufficient to justify a police officer's stop and frisk of that person. ... The tip lacked sufficient indicia of reliability to provide reasonable suspicion to make a Terry stop: It provided no predictive information and therefore left the police without means to test the informant's knowledge or credibility. See Alabama v. White, 496 U. S. 325, 327 . The contentions of Florida and the United States as amicus that the tip was reliable because it accurately described J. L.'s visible attributes misapprehend the reliability needed for a tip to justify a Terry stop. The reasonable suspicion here at issue requires that a tip be reliable in its assertion of illegality, not just in its tendency to identify a determinate person. This Court also declines to adopt the argument that the standard Terry analysis should be modified to license a "firearm exception," under which a tip alleging an illegal gun would justify a stop and frisk even if the accusation would fail standard pre-search reliability testing.

I've asked Penny to send the tape over to her usual A/V guy at JoyMark Video Services for cleanup, enhancement, and digitization, so I expect to have the audio available for everyone's download and review in the next week or so. That should cost about $75-$100, she said.

The digitized audio will provide additional useful information as to the exact timing of events. It includes everything - including radio chatter where they're running my Glock's serial number and my DL and Pistol Permit - from the transfer of the call to the clearing.

There's also another tape, from the cellphone 911 call center, which we are going to try to obtain - we only have the call after it was transferred over to Manchester.

I thought heard the dispatcher say that nothing turned up in a Manchester database of concealed carry permits, but she noted I have a Merrimack address. So it appears that there may not be a statewide database - I got the impression that she'd have had to call down to Merrimack to validate the permit. Once we get the tape online, you can see for yourself.

We're also going to do a bit more research and info-gathering here and there, I'll probably make an outing tomorrow. More soon...
 

Jamie Young

New member
I like many others probably do, hope you nail these biggots to the back wall.

Oh, the irony of that statement. ;)

Funny how some people were called "less than patriotic" before and now we see he's a true Patriot fighting a good fight.

Give 'em hell, Michael!!!
 
"Speaking of Mas Ayoob, I wonder if he'd get involved or offer advice. He DOES live about 20 miles from the Barnes & Noble where this took place. Maybe you should have your lawyer contact him if he thinks Mas could help."

I wish he would visit this forum to give his own words.

But...

From everything I read, he would not have hesitated to jack up someone with a CCW permit for "flashing". Or even "printing".

Not saying he would have condoned the method used in this case, exactly. Again, I feel a little out of place commenting, but I'm not so sure where he would stand on the "open carry" issue in general. In the wealth of articles he's written, and the countless references to New Hampshire, he doesn't seem to acknowledge that right.

Someone once told me the only thing needed was a valid New hampshire hunting license. Anybody from N.H. care to comment?
 

mvpel

New member
No permit needed for open carry

That is, as long as you're not a Brady "prohibited person." As much was said by Earl Sweeney, director of the New Hampshire Police Standards & Training Council, in the August 2003 newsletter.

In addition, the NH State Police actually tells citizens who can't get home-state CCW (Illinois, New Jersey, etc.) that their only option when visiting NH is to carry openly and unload while in the car, since a home-state CCW is required for a non-resident NH CCW.

I spoke to Mas shortly after this happened, and his take on it was that one should whenever possible avoid "spooking the horses," as he put it, and recommended that I chalk it up to experience and be more careful about making sure my pistol was concealed in the future.

Aside from that, I got the 911 and dispatch recording transcribed, posted here: http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1184323/posts - and the audio file, a 4.2MB MP3, is here: http://www.aidoann.com/manchester.mp3
 
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Zedicus

New member
Geez, that 911 & despatch mp3 said a LOT, the caller was obviously a Anti, and the fact that she hung up when asked for her ID, should have been noticed by the 911 operator to be suspicious in itsellf.

The Despach recording was also somewhat suspicious in the way that the dispacher inittaly relayed the situation, and also in the calling of a code 7 on all units.
(Overboard IMO)

Also the 2nd car radioing in sounded like somone looking for a promotion to the SWAT Team...

Hope you Nail em good mvpel!
 

mvpel

New member
Awaiting 91-A public records response from Capt. Mara

I sent a letter to Capt. Mara requesting an appointment to review and copy the Manchester Policy and Procedure Guide just over a week ago, and I'm expecting some sort of reply by tomorrow at the latest.

I suppose since I made the mistake of not sending it certified mail, return receipt, he can simply claim they never got it to circumvent the 5 business day deadline in the public records law.

I'll give him a ring tomorrow if nothing comes in the mail, and if nothing comes of that, try again with a return receipt.
 

Jeff OTMG

New member
I guess you found out that Mas got divorced and moved to Florida, his ex got the Police Bookshelf and he took LFI, at least that is what I heard. Too bad he prefers people take the cowards way out and hide from their rights. Spooking the horses is just what the horses need to be desensitized to us carrying guns. If they saw us everywhere they would soon realize that we are not a threat. No surprise that he would support his buddies in the PD though.
 

12-34hom

New member
Ccw?

Chalk it up to experience - be more careful to conceal your gun when in public.

Sounds like excellent advice, something Mvpel should have done in the first place, instead of staging a three ring circus for all to see.

Are your 15 minutes up yet?

12-34hom.
 

TheBluesMan

Moderator Emeritus
I think it is intellectually dishonest to say that mvpel "staged" this incident. Maybe you can explain how he pulled off having the first contact officer grab his firearm with one hand and shove him against a bookcase with the other? Can you give me a break please, Chuck? Oh... and I'd like to super size it! :rolleyes:

He has repeatedly admitted that it was a mistake to not wear his jacket into the bookstore. What more can the man do to convince you that he'd have rather avoided this incident altogether? :confused:
 
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